The Happy at Work podcast explores the intersection of organizational culture, positive psychology, and employee branding to create thriving workplaces. Our expert hosts—Dr. Laura Hamill, Michael McCarthy, and Dr. Tessa Misiaszek—bring diverse perspectives and deep expertise to uncover practical strategies for fostering happiness and success at work.
We engage with various guests, including organizational leaders, HR professionals, psychologists, researchers, and employees across various industries. Through thought-provoking conversations, we delve into:
How organizational culture shapes employee experiences and drives engagement
Evidence-based positive psychology strategies that boost both human flourishing and business metrics
Innovative approaches to align brand identity with employee experience and operationalize company values
Our mission is to give listeners actionable insights and tools to transform their workplaces. Whether you're a CEO, an HR professional, a manager, or an employee seeking to make a positive impact, the Happy at Work podcast offers valuable perspectives to help you create a more fulfilling, productive, and positive work environment.
Join us as we explore the cutting edge of workplace well-being and performance, uncovering the strategies that lead to truly happy, engaged, and successful organizations.
This episode features Jennifer Nurick, author of Heal Your Anxious Attachment. Jennifer shares her career journey studying various healing modalities in Australia, leading her to specialize in attachment theory and childhood trauma.
She discusses how attachment patterns from childhood can show up in the workplace and offers insights from her experience with an avoidant partner. Jennifer also provides perspective on the prevalence of anxiety in younger generations and offers tools for managing it, such as journaling triggers and speaking to a therapist.
Listeners learn about internal family systems therapy and how it can help heal trauma from past events like bullying.
Overall, the conversation offers meaningful takeaways for understanding attachment, anxiety, and practical steps toward healing.
And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.
If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!
Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!
Laura Hamill:
Welcome back for another episode of the happy at work podcast, with Laura, Tessa and Michael.
Tessa Misiaszek:
Each week we have thoughtful conversations with leaders, founders and authors about happiness at work.
Michael McCarthy:
Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation. Enjoy the show. Welcome, everyone, to the happy work podcast. I'm your host, Michael McCarthy today. And I'd like to welcome our guests from Australia, Jennifer Nurik, who is the author of a new book heal your anxious attachment. Jennifer, welcome.
Jennifer Nurick:
Thanks for having me on. Michael. Great to be here.
Michael McCarthy:
And thank you for coming on the show at 630 in the morning. We really appreciate that.
Jennifer Nurick:
Easy, I'm up most mornings at six. So just have breakfast after no problem.
Michael McCarthy:
Oh, excellent. Excellent. So Jennifer, we'd love you to meet our audience. Could you share us a little bit about yourself your career journey? And how did you come to write "heal your anxious attachment"?
Jennifer Nurick:
I've been in the healing space. My whole career, I really entered in at about 25 I arrived in Australia and with a love of my life and didn't have a work visa I was on a de facto visa. So I thought I'll just go and study and I'll just study some things that sound really interesting. So I studied Kinesiology. I don't know if you've ever heard of that... muscle testing, Reiki energetic and spiritual healing. We've got a big college here in Sydney that specializes. I studied all kinds of things, Qigong, yoga, and just kind of played around in that space and learnt so much and experienced a lot of personal healing through that process of some childhood stuff that I was carrying. And then I went on to study a master's in applied psychotherapy, and counseling, which is one of the highest qualifications in Australia is the sort of a psychotherapy pathway. And just loved it. I've been doing a lot of transactional analysis work. So in a child in a parent in an adult since my mid 20s, certified now in EMDR, internal family systems. For those of you who don't know what internal family systems is, it's about parts work. So the work of Richard Schwartz. And it's kind of a, I see it as a really amazing model, where we divided the parts out into a protective system, and also the XR so the more wounded parts that are holding a lot more pain. So I see it quite similar to that in a child model, just more specific. And with a healing pathway that actually includes a little bit of energetic healing near the end of that healing process. I also do couples therapy now and use the Sue Johnson Emotionally Focused couples therapy. So I really enjoy doing my cup of work. And then I went into the attachment space because of my own attachment dynamic that was playing out in my relationship in my marriage in marriage for 18 years, with the same person for over over half my life now, which just seems like crazy. But my partner has more of the avoidant attachment patterns, and I have more of the anxious style. And so working that out in our relationship has been a journey. And that was what just I discovered a lot of work different ways to work with that.
Michael McCarthy:
That's fascinating. And it you've done so many things. I is one of your strengths, love of learning. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because you were listing all these things, and I was like, Yeah, I tried that. I tried that, too. I tried that, too. We're on the same on the same path. But curious about your book, when you talk about these attachments, the things that have happened in our childhood that that come with us into adulthood. How do you see this showing up at the workplace? Hmm.
Jennifer Nurick:
I like to use an example with this. I have permission from a good friend of mine to use this as an example. We were chatting one day and he said, Dan, I've had this realization that's what's good. Along with my boss is an exact replica of what was going on at home with my dad, what was happening was her boss was a really difficult person. And her work colleagues were coming to her to kind of buffer between them and him. So they would talk to her and debrief and vent. And she would kind of placate them and reason with them and kind of act as a go between between them and the boss. She had this realization that that's exactly what happened with Dad, Dad was a very difficult person. So her siblings really struggled. And she played exactly the same role, this kind of peacekeeping go between role and she found that it was causing her a lot of it was like, a pressure on her. She was finding it. It was almost like she had her workload, and then she was carrying the that emotional burden of maintaining the peace and keeping the balance at work as well. And we had a whole discussion about okay, how do we how do we, you know, how to you in a really sort of supportive and loving way kind of step out of that role. And that was a real journey for her in helping them have relationship directly with the tricky boss, so that we have an acknowledgement that they will also have a learning process through that, that there is something we grow as humans when we are faced with tricking people, and we have to develop different skills. So yeah, that was a journey for her. But really, it was about stepping aside and kind of right, number one, recognizing the pattern. And number two, thinking of ways to mindfully step out of it.
Michael McCarthy:
It's interesting how you, you talk about this, because it just popped up for me, I do something at work that I did, as my job when I was a kid, I was the one that would make everything funny. So all the trauma, all the bad stuff, any challenges, I would turn it into a joke. And people come to me at work with the gossip. And I turn it into a joke, and you just kind of pointed out to me. I didn't make it to. So step one, how do you how do you become aware that you're doing it? I literally didn't notice until you came on the show? How do you? How do you become aware of something that's just so in your bones?
Jennifer Nurick:
That's a couple of ways. One might be feedback, if you get some feedback to think about that. And and be curious, can you
Michael McCarthy:
ask people for feedback? And you create an environment where you say, hey, you know, you could do a little magic wand? What would you make a little bit better? Any advice on that? For people who are kind of new it? How do I get better and change?
Jennifer Nurick:
Course, absolutely, you can ask for feedback. And I would be really mindful about who I'm asking for the feedback, I'd probably start with people who I know are close to me and care about me. And I would maybe preface it with, I really want to know, because sometimes there are things that other people know about me that are glaringly obvious. And I don't know about me, and I'm really looking at 15, my communication skills and my interpersonal skills or just looking to be a better human being. And it might be that you can see things that are just obvious that I'm really not able to see. So I'd really value the feedback, I would start with something like that, because for some people, it can be quite confronting giving feedback, they might think, oh, geez, I have I have something really big that I'd like to tell you. But I'm afraid that you're not going to like me that you're going to talk about me behind my back that you think that you want the feedback, but you don't really know what I'm going to say you kind of know that anyway. And so what's the point? So there's all of that stuff that can block it. So those would be my tips.
Michael McCarthy:
Great. Thank you and I, I was noticing in your in your bio before the show started. That you're specializing in anxious attachment, childhood trauma, and I teach around the world, mostly, to undergrads and post grads and especially with my undergrads, I do a Mentimeter, which is like this anonymous polling that I can do for large groups if I'm doing a large audience. And when I asked them in the beginning, a word cloud of, Hey, how are you doing? I always get three, the same three words. And this is cross cultural. I get pretty good. I get tired, and then I get anxious. And I'm wondering, are you noticing that our current generation or Gen Z who went through COVID? Do you think that they're more anxious than previous generations? Have you made any observations?
Jennifer Nurick:
I'm trying to think where does my feeling about this come from? Because I don't have a lot of contact with Gen Z, to be honest. But what I'm hearing from parents, I'm hearing it more from the parents I think about it is yes, that there is more anxiety. And the lens that I looked through with that is that that means that they're developing more anxious parts. So parts of themselves that come forward as holding a lot of anxiety, anxious feelings.
Michael McCarthy:
So for are Gen Z college students who are looking to be successful in the future? How could you help them? What are some things that that might be able to be tools to help them just sort of dial that back a little bit?
Jennifer Nurick:
So first step is really recognizing that the anxiety is building. And everybody's system works slightly differently. And I think it's getting really curious about, you know, what, what works for me and what doesn't. So in my own system, I learned when I was about 27, that if I have coffee, on a Sunday morning, lovely breakfast, nice cup of coffee, little bit of hot chocolate in it, that it makes me want my heart rate go up, it makes me feel quite anxious. And so coffee for me is builds anxiety. There are other things that I know, in, in my own system that create anxiety, so maybe even writing a list of what are those things? How can I support myself to prepare for those things? Do writing lists helped me with my anxiety? If the anxiety is ongoing? And starting to feel like it's really overtaking? It can be super helpful to speak to a therapist who can help you get to the source is there? What are the parts that are holding anxiety? Is other? Is there a kind of visit fear around future career? Is it fear around relationship? Is it situational with something that you're going through? Is it kind of trapped anxiety that was there a lot in your childhood. So when I think back to my own childhood, my parents have nervous systems that were very much stuck in that hyper arousal that kind of fight or flight. And so my nervous system was in this constant state of anxiety, because that was just the environment that I grew up in. I didn't even know that until I got older and started to meditate and do other practices. So if you've got that kind of ongoing anxiety, that's your kind of resting place therapy can really help with that, because it's come from somewhere. And in therapy, you can really explore where does it come from, but also not only explore, but also heal and defuse the parts that are holding that.
Michael McCarthy:
I feel the liquid since the beginning of the interview, everyone's a bit of a snowflake, we all have our own individual makeup of how this is showing up for us. And I used to have panic attacks. And what got rid of them for me was swimming butterfly on swim team, because there's nothing else you can do. But just try that swim butterfly, and survive and focus on the bad stuff. And doing hot yoga. So these like really strenuous distracting exercises in groups with music, work for me. And I'm curious if you if you have any thoughts or experience with preventative things like exercise yoga, meditation before an event occurs?
Jennifer Nurick:
Absolutely. I mean, absolutely, that can be helpful.
Michael McCarthy:
The next one I like to ask is about difficult conversations, we always have those. And especially in the current work environment, I've found with with my consulting work, when I go into either government agencies or publicly traded companies, throw walking on thin ice, they're just so afraid of saying the wrong thing. And then they're going to get the call to HR, there's going to be a complaint to so many people are like playing it safe. But things really aren't. I think being said, that needs to be said. And I think that creates a difficult conversation when it didn't need to be a difficult conversation. So I think what I'm really asking is, how do you create a level of vulnerability and trust and psychological safety where you can say what needs to be said and not worry that you're going to get in trouble for maybe not using the correct Words are, you know, the pronouns got messed up, he had no ill intent. But with all the hyper judgment that some people feel how can we get that psychological safety to have real conversations? Any thoughts on that?
Jennifer Nurick:
I mean, that's a that's a work culture issue, isn't it? And it's a in my view, that would be a leadership and work culture thing. Because if the company has this culture of criticism and complaints, and people are feeling more and more restricted, and its limit, I mean, we know that that limits creativity, and the expression of free flow of ideas and creative energy. So it's really detrimental in my understanding to businesses, and it often will mirror leaders, by default will often mirror the kinds of what's the word when you're like telling off your kids?
Michael McCarthy:
Or like when you're disciplining your kids, that's it,
Jennifer Nurick:
that's it, people by default, will just kind of do what they learn in their family system. And so unless they've really spent time thinking about is that how I want to discipline, and they might not be smacking their employees, because we're not allowed to do that. But you can be smacked in other ways. You can smack somebody with the tone of your voice with the you know, don't, that was just such a ridiculous idea. And if I room full of people who say that, then everyone learns from that, I need to really think through my ideas, I need to really back them up before I can present them in a safe way.
Michael McCarthy:
And I think like the way to pitch it to leadership will be to say, if you keep a cultural environment like this, you were decreasing your competitive advantage, because you don't have a competitive edge. If you can't be innovative and come up with interesting ideas. If people are afraid to share the ideas, you're just gonna get a lot of mediocrity. And you're not to have this anymore. Yeah,
Jennifer Nurick:
yeah. I mean, I think I read the other day. That is it. Google asked some of the really senior leaders to go to Burning Man in the desert.
Michael McCarthy:
Oh, I want to go to Burning Man. I didn't know they did it. That's, that's pretty cool.
Jennifer Nurick:
Google or follow, but one of the really big tech companies bringing on a new CEO, and before they took him on instead, okay, part of the, I guess the interview process was they took him to Burning Man. And I thought, wow, how interesting as a, as a, as an, as an experience, something to look to go into together. I mean, I've never been, but I've heard with the desert. It's quite quite an intense experience in lots of different ways, and so much creativity and being amongst lots of different kinds of people.
Michael McCarthy:
Yeah, it sounds, it's on my bucket list. It's on my bucket list. And, you know, one of my favorite things in the world is to have a great conversation, which is what we've been having now. And I see, the time always flies, but I'm having a good chat. So I just want to finish up with a question that isn't for me, but it's for one of my students, so I won't share the name. And doesn't matter. But before I met her, I got an email from administration saying that this student has an exemption from public speaking. Because she's amazing. She would be an amazing public speaker, I think it's gonna hold her back professionally. If she sort of holds on to this at a rendering, what would you do for someone who was extroverted and a leader and outgoing and everything was great. And something happened later in life that shut them down, and it's showing up and not public speaking? How would you address that? Yeah.
Jennifer Nurick:
I so resonate with that example. I do heaps of social media videos now. But when I did my first video, which I had to do for work way back, I cried. After I did the video. And I recorded it, I watched myself and I just burst into tears. It was so terrifying for me. So I actually really resonate with this. And I've done heaps of healing work around this particular thing. Bullying is absolutely a trauma right is really traumatic when that happens. I've worked with bullying quite a bit in my practice. And how we how I usually work with it is one of two ways but let's talk about the internal family systems way. So there are parts that really remember that experience. And a holding the words that were said the way that it was said, just the trauma of it and the way that it impacted and what we can do in therapy is go back into some of those times where kind of one foots there and one foots here depending on how traumatic the situation To notice, if we ever go back to something that's incredibly, really, really traumatic, we'll come straight out of it and do the work kind of in present time. But generally speaking will be a little bit there and a little bit here. Another way to think about it is is like a locked in your network. That's how they think about it in EMDR. And it's unable to meet with what's called adaptive memory. So memories of being liked and memories of having lovely things said about you. So those parts can be thought of as the sort of locked tight neural networks. And what we do in the healing process is we bring that and it's a it's a 14 year old, can we bring that 14 year old path forward, and we really get to know it from a place of unconditional love and empathy? Is it there's a great practitioner who says, you know, trauma is a lack of love, and laugh helps to heal the trauma. So we're really getting to know that part holding that part. And we give that part a really different experience, which is in therapy, we call it a corrective experience and missing experience. And that can take quite a while that process of really witnessing what that person went through. Often nobody really knows what that person went through. Sometimes we've shared it with our parents, but it might just sound like I'm being bullied. They don't know the words that were said they don't know the impact, they didn't know that you were hiding in the toilet during the break time. They don't know that you're being spat out, or whatever was going on, right? Often, there's so much shame LinkedIn without we haven't been able to tell another person. So even just sharing it with another human being can be deeply healing. And for that part, to be held by you to be held by the therapist is deeply deeply healing. I think Brene Brown says that shame is healed when it's shared in safe places. So there's several different things that are going on in space. So different experiences, more adaptive memories kind of bought into that experience. And then we go through a process of it's called unburdening, but letting go of some of those really heavy, intense feelings that are sitting in the body, softer more link in somatically. So, you know, where is that shame setting people know straightaway, oh, it's in my solar plexus, right in the middle of above my stomach, like aching. And then there's a process where they get to release that kind of energetically, very powerful to very powerful process. And part of what I was using where I was working with my public speaking, wow,
Michael McCarthy:
thank you, Jennifer. We've, we've got over time, because I just love to talk. I love hearing your answers. This has been wonderful. I want to thank you for your time today. And I hope the people in our listening audience, go out and buy your book. It sounds like it's really interesting. It's called heal your anxious attachment by Jennifer Nurik. And, Jennifer, where's it available? Where can people get up?
Jennifer Nurick:
All over all major bookstores. Amazon topia is a distributor in Australia. And the book is really about when the anxious attachment shows up in your personal relationships or in your intimate relationship and there's a step by step process around how to work with
Michael McCarthy:
that. Okay, beautiful. Well, thank you for coming today. And we hope to have you back soon. Thank you. Bye, everybody.
Jennifer Nurick:
Bye.
Michael McCarthy:
We hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to hear future episodes, be sure to subscribe to the happy at work podcast, and leave us a review with your thoughts.
Tessa Misiaszek:
Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or want to collaborate with us? Let us know. You can send us an email at admin at happy at work podcast.com And
Laura Hamill:
lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for even more happiness. See you soon
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