Cultivating Courage to Overcome Fear and Achieve Your Goals with Margie Warrell

On this episode, we speak with author and speaker Margie Warrell about developing the courage needed to take risks and break through barriers. 

Margie shares stories from her childhood on a rural farm in Australia and how those experiences taught her the importance of courage and embracing discomfort. She discusses tools for managing fear, such as focusing on goals rather than obstacles. 

Margie also emphasizes the connection between courage and finding purpose or meaning in our work. The conversation explores specific challenges women face in male-dominated fields and how embracing small acts of bravery can help build tolerance for risk over time. 

Margie previews her upcoming book "The Courage Gap" which offers a framework for developing courage at work and closing the gap between espoused values and actual behaviors.

• Visit Margie's website!
• Preorder her book, ‘The Courage Gap", here.
• To support Margie's NYC marathon run, head this way.

To stay connected and continue the conversation, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.

And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.

If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!

Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!

Transcript

Laura Hamill: 0:06

Welcome back for another episode of the happy at work podcast, with Laura, Tessa and Michael.

Tessa Misiaszek: 0:14

Each week we have thoughtful conversations with leaders, founders and authors about happiness at work. Tune

Michael McCarthy: 0:22

in each Thursday for a new conversation. Enjoy the show.

Tessa Misiaszek: 0:40

Hi, and welcome to the happy at work podcast. We are so excited to be joined today by Margie Worrell, who is a best selling author, keynote speaker and consultant on all things having to do with talent and really a topic that we're excited to speak with her about, which is courage, having courage at work having courage in your life. And her latest book, her newest book is coming out next January called the courage gap. So welcome Margie to the happy at work podcast.

Margie Warrell: 1:12

It's great to be with you, Tessa,

Tessa Misiaszek: 1:15

free, thank you so much. You know, we're gonna kick this off and the way that we kick off a lot of our podcasts, which is really, you know, wanting us to hear more about your journey. How did you get to, you know, from a rural farm in Australia to becoming a keynote speaker and really focusing on the topics that you focus on in your consulting work, and certainly in your writing and research over the past several years.

Margie Warrell: 1:41

Great question. I've heard it said that we teach best what we most most need to learn. And so I suppose you could say I've had to practice courage a lot in my life. And I have also found having lived around the world in multiple countries and continents is that when I meet people, and I meet so many smart, clever, creative, capable people, the biggest barrier holding back people who live in countries like the US or Australia is not external. It is internal. It is that lack of belief in ourselves and our willingness to take action amid the risks and our own fear and the and the discomfort. And so yeah, I started out on a farm story from my childhood that relates to the work I do now working with organizations was around the time I was 10 I was desperate for a pony and I begged my dad who milk cows for 50 years we were on dairy farm. I was a big sister of seven kids, could I please get a horse, please, please can I have a pony. And there wasn't a lot of money. And the best that he could manage was to sell a few pigs and buy me this really old horse. And he arrived on the back of a cattle truck on my 10th birthday. And he came up and I looked up at him and he was so big, and I felt so small. But I was determined and every morning before school and every afternoon after school, I would go out there and bridle him up and settle him up. And in the beginning I used to be like sick nauseous with nervousness and day after day and week after week and month after month. My fear weighed and my confidence and my courage grouped. When I look back on that time, I realized that courage and comfort can't ride the same horse. And growth and comfort can't ride the same horse. And when we're only doing what's comfortable, where we know we can't fall off or feel stupid or mess up. We actually deprive ourselves of the opportunities and the experiences that would help us grow and realize I can do that. And it's okay even when I fall off, I can pick myself back up. And I see this in the workplace to regularly and in the last few years I've had the opportunity to be working as consulting in the CEO Institute at Korn Ferry with extremely senior accomplished art shorter Neri leaders. And yet, the thing that trips them up and the things that trips up talented executive teams is never a lack of technical know how and expertise. It is when you drill down far enough and you pull back enough layers it is the unfaced insecurities and fears and vulnerabilities that they haven't dealt with. It's that vertical development work that hasn't been done. That that actually leads to short sighted decision making and blinkered thinking and silos of information that actually really hold everyone back and actually ultimately over time, puts leaders teams options in more vulnerable places. And so, so I feel that courage, even though we talk about it like some people are born with it, and some aren't. It is a skill and you know, and I think I've started to build it and learn it growing up on the phone. And I it's just been something that I feel honestly a real calling around as in my adult life.

Laura Hamill: 5:10

I want to follow up on that Margie, that's such a good story. And the horse analogy is such a good one then love that. I'm curious about what are those some of those tools, and we talked in the very beginning about practicing courage, you know, I can think about things that I've done to try to be calm before meeting or kind of talk myself up, you know, and be more positive self have more positive self talk. I'm curious, what do you think are some of the best tools for people to practice courage?

Margie Warrell: 5:39

Well, firstly, great question, Laura. And But firstly, I'll just say this, there's two aspects to courage. One is the management of fear. And two is the willingness to act in its presence. And so for some people, simply going to an event where they don't know anyone could be terrifying, because they're so afraid. And for someone else, that's not an act of courage at all. It's like they do it all the time. It's not a big deal. So one of it, one part of it is just looking at how we're actually magnifying our own fear factor beyond what is reasonable or rational or proportional to the situation itself. And secondly, is building our own willingness, and that's where purpose can come in and, and building confidence, etc. to take action in the presence of fear. Yes, Michael. All right. So, so to take action in the presence of fear. And so I think a key thing here, Laura would be number one is focusing in on what you want, and not on what you don't want. Why is it that you know, you want to do this thing, whether it is to, you know, build a business, and you need to need to go out there and network or to build relationships across an organization where you need to reach out to people you don't know, or people who are more senior to you. And often our brains, as we know, in the work of Daniel Cunningham, our brains are wired, to focus more on what we don't want and what we do want, we're TWICE as sensitive to potential losses as we are to potential gains. And so just recognizing there is that bias, to avoid the situations which could make us feel bad versus to go and create situations that could make us feel good. And so I always say, you know, focus on what it is you want, not on what you don't want, and be really clear about what is it that you want to achieve? Like, why is that inspiring to you? Why does that feed a sense of purpose and meaning for you? And that's where purpose and courage a very form a virtuous cycle, because when we're grounded in, you know, a purpose that gives us, meaning, we're like, you know what, I may be terrified right now, I'm scared that things won't go, but I'm going to do this anyway. Dammit, you know, I'm not going to let my fear of what could go wrong, keep me from trying to make things more, right. And whether that's reaching out to someone, whether that's giving feedback to someone, because I want to be a great manager, and I know this person isn't going to develop if I don't give this feedback, even though it's risky, they might not respond well, even though it's going to be awkward, and they might get upset. So I think that is that is one key thing is just to be really clear on what your intention is, and where you're putting your focus. Because, of course, what we focus on expands and if all we do is focus on what scares us and what makes us stressed and anxious, as I believe we saw a lot of during the pandemic, it actually just feels more of that. And so we actually become a victim of our own anxious thinking as well as an accomplice to it. Real

Tessa Misiaszek: 8:46

quick, you just froze for a moment. Oh, so you froze when you said we were talking about what you focus on? Yeah. You kind of I don't know, maybe.

Margie Warrell: 9:00

Yeah, I'm just gonna say if there's many jst I really don't have windows open. Sorry, if it's the Wi Fi on my end, I'm not sure what to do. But hang on, just bear with me as I close. I don't think it's, there's anything I can change on that. So let me just come back to you. Okay, so I said, what we focus on expands? Yeah.

Tessa Misiaszek: 9:19

So actually, we didn't hear what expands so if you can just start there. Just to finish your thought and then we can go on

Margie Warrell: 9:26

what we focus on expands and when all we're doing is focusing on what we don't want or what's causing us stress or makes us feel anxious. We actually only become more anxious and more stressed and more afraid. So I think number one, Laura is really check what is it that you're putting your attention on and getting really clear about your highest intention that you want to achieve?

Michael McCarthy: 9:49

Mark Yeah, I love this the the intersection of Daniel Kahneman his work on you know, losses are twice as painful as a gain and really focusing on that North Star purpose, I'm going to ask you a really challenging question. I just feel free to, to play with me, I had the opportunity to meet the parent of one of my students and her dad is a general, he runs the War College in Colombia, the country. And his job is to train generals so that they can bring people into battle against the narcos. So I was asking questions about the new recruits. And I said, How do you teach courage to a new recruit, when they know there is a ransom on them, if their addresses disclosed so that they could be killed, they can be kidnapped, they can be killed in battle, they don't have experience. A lot of the people that are on the other side of the terrorists are cocaine growers, or however you want to label them. They're they're really focused on what they do. How would you teach a new person courage when they're afraid? And just to so much stacked up against them? But they've been drafted?

Margie Warrell: 11:00

Yeah. This comes back to purpose, and a why there has to be a significant why. And so I would be focused on helping those people understand the greater cause that they've been drafted to support. We may not always explicitly ask ourselves the question, but if we cannot answer the question, for the sake of what am I willing to be brave, then we likely won't be for the sake of what am I willing to go into battle, or to raise my voice, or to say, or do something that's unpopular, much less to lay my life on the line, and we see people lay their lives on the line, you just think not long ago, Alex ivaldi, you know, eyes wide open was laying his life on the line, and it cost him his life. And anyone in a wartime situation, we have to be sufficiently galvanized by a sense of purpose. And that helps to really reinforce our courage that we believe in the cause. If we don't believe in the cause, it's pretty hard to be brave, we have to believe in the cause.

Tessa Misiaszek: 12:18

So I would love to now take that from that extreme example, as it relates to obviously, in war and that connection to purpose, which, you know, completely makes sense, to actually bring it back into the workplace. Honestly, I haven't heard that connection between courage and purpose. But that makes so much sense to me now, and I can see how it's really a dual relationship, the greater the purpose and meaning the more courage you'll have, the more courage you gain, the probably the more connected to purpose you'll you'll be and the it's kind of a, you know, interchange of those two constructs, which I think are so important. I'd love to talk a little bit about your advocacy for women, women in the workplace, because certainly, you know, this is a constituency that I also think conditioning and stereotypes and other types of barriers that have been faced. I don't know if it's a lack of courage, or if it's just almost a kind of a, I don't want to say the word complacency as a woman, but it's almost like you give up before you've even tried, right? Like you kind of already feel like you know the outcome, so why bother? And so what would you say? Or what's kind of your thoughts? Or What work have you done and kind of helping women kind of get over those those barriers, those stereotypes, those generalizations and maybe try to break through, both metaphorically and physically, sometimes to, to get to that other side and to be able to see a different type of outcome. Great

Margie Warrell: 13:57

question, Tessa. Well, firstly, let me just say, there's often a lot of pushback on this idea that women need to do more. And we often hear people say, we don't need to fix women, we need to fix the system. And yes, there are absolutely systemic cultural barriers that women have faced and continue to face in many countries outside the world outside of the United States are greater barriers than what women face here. And I work with those women, women from Iran, or Afghanistan or Yemen in all parts of the world in the work I do with the women's democracy network. But if we're talking about women in the United States, or in Australia, or in England, or in countries that are that really are trying to live out the values of gender equality, I would say this having grown up in a very gendered environment myself, that often we don't even realize how we're hemmed in by social norms, and expectations that others may have heard of us when we were young. A lack of role models etc. And so we can hold ourselves back very unconsciously, I was talking to a young woman just a day or two ago about not that she hasn't got a pay increase. And she, she had asked, and then she hasn't got it and, and I said, you're gonna need to be kind of bold here, and really stand your ground. She's like, I feel so like, it's so awkward and uncomfortable. I said, Yeah, it is, it's really awkward and uncomfortable. But that's what you're going to have to do. And so I think, as a woman, and I wrote about this, actually, my last book, you've got this, which was inspired because of all the women I met. And I'm often saying to them, you've got this, you know, back yourself, make a bet on yourself. We need to doubt our doubts, because we often we often buy into our doubts, and we treat our doubts as though they're the truth. You know, I'm not that smart or, and we look at other people are not as strategic is that person and creative or financially strong as that person or et cetera, et cetera, versus really owning the unique value that we bring and doubting our doubts and standing firm in our own value. And that's where I believe so strongly that courage comes before confidence. And we talk a lot about we hear this thing of the gender confidence gap. But actually, we cannot close that confidence gap without first acting with courage doing the very things that we're nervous to do when a little voice in our heads going, Who the hell do you think you are to do that? You're not good enough? What will people say they will probably say no. And just doing it anyway, like, there is a fear there that we have, we've got to step forward amid our fear, there is a risk factor there. Women face the double binds and the backlash effect, you know, too bossy, if we are assertive and not leader like enough if we're not. And so I really believe that we need to defy our own doubts, we need to be willing to break the norms, we need to risk some of that backlash, because you cannot change norms, deeply entrenched norms, by complying to them. And it's why women who are at the forefront of change in any industry, particularly very male dominated ones, they have to be that much bolder and braver, because they do face extreme, extremely strong headwinds. But over time, they do help to level the playing field and make it easier for others. And I feel we're in a very different world today than women were in the workplace 30 years ago, however, or 50 years ago, that doesn't mean that it is still not without its challenges, and women still face a much more complex career journey. As a mom of four myself, you know, no one ever said to my husband. Wow, how do you have a career with four kids? Said no one ever. And yet I have had people say to me all the time, have you had a career with four children? Like how do you do that. And so we'll know that we've reached a quality when there's not more questions like that going to women, and he doesn't get a gold medal every time he would go out without children without a wife as though you knows, husband and father of the Year award. So So I think there's still a long way to go. But I think as women, while we shape our environment, and our environment shapes us, we really need to be backing ourselves all the time. And it is uncomfortable. And actually, to your point earlier, Laura. And now the key thing that we have to do, and this isn't just for women, this is for men, too, is we have to embrace discomfort, we have to just get comfortable being uncomfortable. And I know myself when I'm uncomfortable, and I'm uncomfortable, you know, writing this new book that's coming out there, I feel vulnerable. Oh my gosh, what if it's not good enough? I know, everyone's like, we look at women like Brene Brown, or we look at others and go, Oh, they're so amazing. You're like, Oh, I'm never gonna measure up. And just going, You know what, I'm not gonna let my fear of having a negative comparison or not being good enough, stop me from doing the very thing that I really feel called to do and lights me up. And so I think it's true for all of us just daring to do the very thing you're afraid to do. Don't wait for confidence. And over time, it's that's the very thing that helps build the confidence and actually also ameliorate that impostor syndrome that also many women struggle with, but men too, but I think women most of all,

Michael McCarthy: 19:21

Margie, I love this. And I want to get your opinion on something that happened to me about 30 years ago, that helped me with courage. And I was in a, I was in a political demonstration in New York City. And there was a parade ambassador, this woman. And so things are getting like a little violent politically. And this woman turned into a tiger. And she stood this guy down who had been really big, even threatening physical violence. And, and when she won, like, she won the interaction. And I went up to her because I was afraid. I was like, 19 years old. I went up to her and I said, Where did you get the courage to do that? And she goes, You can be so much braver on behalf of another person than yourself. She goes, try it. And I did. And it is so much easier for me to like be that tiger standing up for other people. And it kind of helped me learn how to advocate for myself. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that as maybe being a strategy or a technique to, to kind of get started with courage? What are your thoughts,

Margie Warrell: 20:27

I think that's really powerful observation. And it's true in that what gives us meaning as humans, we're wired for connection. And we often feel far more purposeful and passionate. When it's something that's not just impacting ourselves, I'm not just fighting for myself, to have a better life, or to have more rights and freedom or to deal with an injustice, I'm fighting on the behalf of others. And maybe I'm part of it, too. But you know, throughout history, we've seen change happen when people have fought for something, and it's way bigger than themselves. This is particularly the case and there's so much research showing this for women in the workplace can often be quite bold. When it comes to them advocating for others on their team, for instance, I didn't when I did my doctorate around, I just dissertation was on women's leadership and and it was often the case because women are so affiliative. And they're passionate about others, and often very team focused, how do I lift others? How do I help others that they'll go, helpful lever for, for for for fighting for their team, often more timid, more cautious, not as strong and assertive when it's for themselves. So I think we need to everywhere, but I think often when it comes to that purpose, we can just feel fire in the belly when there's something I know for me as a mum, over the years, I've probably never been more assertive and never fought harder. When I felt there was something I really need to fight for. For my child, it was it just totally broke me out of whether they liked me or not, whether they think I'm being reasonable, like, damn it, I'm going to do this. And I think so there's a lot to be said for that. But I think for ourselves, I often want to just help people realize when you think, Oh, it's just for me, so I get paid better, or I get a promotion? No, actually, it's not just fee just for you, when you're growing. And when you're stepping into something that's bigger, and that stretches you and develops you. Everyone else benefits as a benefit to the you bring your value in bigger ways you have there's a ripple effect from that you're a role model in bigger ways. And so I think sometimes when we're thinking it's just for us, we maybe need to expand our aperture because actually, when we're growing into our potential and really living our purpose more fully and boldly, at doesn't just serve us that serves countless others too. That's

Laura Hamill: 22:52

such a good way to say that I hadn't really thought about it in that way. And I That makes so much sense. I'd love to hear a little bit more about your new book. Can you tell us about the book, the current gap that's coming out in two? I

Margie Warrell: 23:03

can thank you for asking. So yes, the courage gap. Five steps for braver action. And we've touched on a couple of those things just today in our conversation comes out with Berrett Koehler next January. But I wrote this book, because it's been five years since my last book, you've got this, which came out just as the wheels were falling off the world in COVID. And I think as we look, whether it's in organizations, and I get to have, you know, up close and personal with what's going on in organizations regularly, we often oceans and leaders will often say we have a high value on candor, or collaboration or innovation, or you know, agility. And yet the very behaviors people need to exhibit to be living that value don't happen, there's often a gap between what we espouse as our values and what people do. And that's individual, and that's collective as well. And honestly, I truly believe that fear creates that gap in some way, shape, or form. Fear creates the gap and courage is what closes that gap. And when we can develop that muscle, that skill, it's a learnable skill in ourselves, and then help to develop it in others. It unlocks immense latent potential. And it avoids the very decisions and behaviors that ultimately can leave people and teams and organizations in more insecure places. And I think as we look at history, you can look at organizations, you know, we look at those that have you know, flamed out, and we go well, why was it that Kodak didn't get on board with digital photography? Why was it that blockbuster just didn't see the writing on the wall? Because people were locked in their thinking and they weren't even willing to challenge to challenge their own blanket thinking because people were afraid, you know, disasters, NASA etc. were afraid to speak up because there was so much fear. And so I feel strongly that all leadership's starts with self leadership. We cannot lead others, we cannot instill courage in others, we cannot foster psychological safety, which I was talking to Amy Edmondson, you know, and we did, I did a podcast with her on my own podcast. And you know, she said psychological and safety are two sides of the same coin, we cannot foster that if we're not role modeling, and coming from a place grounded in encouraging virtue in value in our own lives. And so I wrote this book, because I really believe that the way that we can turn around negative situations, the way we can elevate organizations, honestly society or the world, is by is by doing the very thing sometimes were afraid to do and getting out of our own way, and really challenging those deeply edge patterns of thought and behavior, that of fear, calling the shots and going out what is it I want to stand for that's bigger than what I'm afraid of.

Tessa Misiaszek: 26:01

So as Margie, we wind down, I can't believe we're already at the 30 minute mark. As as we as we kind of end this I would love. This has been such an amazing conversation, you have given us so many different bits of advice and things to think about. But if you were to kind of distill it down to a piece of advice to we just our last couple podcasts ago, we didn't we worked with a Gen Z panel. And these were early careerists. They're just starting out actually three women, if you were to give them a piece of advice about how they can kind of identify these opportunities to cultivate courage that they can start to work this muscle more regularly than waiting for the kind of the big event but how they can kind of do this on a more regular basis. What what advice or what kinds of exercises or what would you recommend to people who really want to exercise this muscle as as I do to be honest with you after this conversation? Yeah,

Margie Warrell: 27:05

well, I think firstly, tests are recognizing is actually a muscle it is a psychological muscle. And there's something called effect tolerance, where the more we do something, the more we repeat it, the more tolerant we get of feeling that way. And so it's like bomb disposal experts, right? Don't start with a live bomb, they start on a little things, and they build up their ability to stay calm in a high stakes situation. So that in the same vein, I would say, some people might be saying, you know, I'm fine, I don't need to be brave, I'm cool. I've learned, okay, if I went through every aspect of your life, instead, I want you to write it out a 10 with how deeply satisfied and positive you feel about it. Any area that's not getting a solid 8.59 I would say okay, what's going on now? What's going on in that aspect of your life that's only getting a six or seven or two? Right? There is an opportunity for you to act with courage. And like, oh, I can't change this. Oh, but I couldn't do that. No, I would say no, that's not true. And so in those gaps in our own life, between the life we're living and the life we want to be living, it was is is silent invitations for us to act with courage. And so within that, and it's a question I asked myself often, what would I do today, if I was being brave. And sometimes it's I would reach out to that person that I'm not sure is interested in building a relationship with me, but I really think they're cool. And I'd love to catch up with them. And I would just reach out to them. And they'll either say yes, or they'll say no, but I'll risk the rejection. I'm going to push back and say no to that invitation, even though I know that person's probably going to feel a little bit of disappointment. Or I'm going to give that feedback to someone who I know might react a little negatively, but honestly, it lacks a lack of integrity and me as a leader, if I don't give that feedback, because I see there's an opportunity for that person to develop in that area. And I think they're blind to how they're coming across and showing up for others and sabotaging themselves. So obviously, it's different for everybody. But I would say continually just asking yourself, what would I do today if I was being brave, in my job, in my team, as a parent, as a partner, or even with my goals, if I've taken on running the New York Marathon, this November, and I have never run a marathon and I grew up with a label on my head that my dad gave me a bumblefoot that because I was uncoordinated. And so here I am in my 50s going, You know what, I am going to run a marathon. And let me tell you it's a lot of steps outside my comfort zone but it's like you know what, I just don't want to go to my I always wanted to do one and I'm like I now I'm going to go to my grave knowing I did it. Just one I haven't done it yet. But you know that I'm certainly committed to doing it. So yeah, Tessa, I would just say asking yourself, why do I need to be braver and anytime there's an area of your life that's not as you'd like it to be? II in there, it's calling for courage.

Tessa Misiaszek: 30:05

I absolutely love that. I actually had an answer to every single one of those questions you just asked, as far as you know, who's that person was that feedback? And congratulations on running your first marathon. I just ran London in April. Good for you. Yeah. So it's, it is an amazing, amazing experience in New York is an amazing marathon. So wishing you all the luck. Are you running it for charity?

Margie Warrell: 30:31

Yes, I'm running it for the team team rave Christopher Reeve Foundation. Wonderful. And yeah, my brother has paraplegia. And so I actually just posted an article on LinkedIn about it because he just came to visit me from Australia. And I, I he's really inspired me with his attitude. But the reef Foundation does a lot of great research into spinal injury, how to help those live with it. And also how do we how do we help people who have injuries ultimately get mobility back over time? So yes, that and you know what, it helps me in my training that I'm running it not just for me to go, Hey, I did a marathon. That's cool. But actually, I love that I'm running it to help people who are living with disability and spinal injury.

Tessa Misiaszek: 31:13

So yeah, you also have to be brave every day, every day,

Margie Warrell: 31:17

every day. It's very, very inspiring. Yeah.

Tessa Misiaszek: 31:20

Wonderful. Margie, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for joining us. This has just been a fantastic conversation. We're so appreciative and excited to read the coverage gap, which comes out next January. Maybe we could have you back to talk a little bit more about the book, then.

Margie Warrell: 31:35

I would love that. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure to be on with you all.

Michael McCarthy: 31:39

Thank you very much. We hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to hear future episodes, be sure to subscribe to the happy at work podcast, and leave us a review with your thoughts.

Tessa Misiaszek: 31:54

Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or want to collaborate with us? Let us know you can send us an email at admin at happy at work podcast.com And

Laura Hamill: 32:06

lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for even more happiness. See you soon