The Happy at Work Podcast

Finding Your Path to Career Nourishment with Faye McCray

• The Happy at Work Podcast • Season 6 • Episode 9

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In this conversation, Faye McCray shares her journey from practicing law to media and consulting, exploring how career transitions and authentic storytelling can lead to more nourishing work. She discusses the importance of recognizing when work environments no longer serve us, the power of taking calculated risks, and how sharing our authentic stories can create deeper connections in our professional lives.

In This Episode, You'll Learn:

  • How to recognize when your career needs a pivot and strategies for making bold transitions
  • Why authentic storytelling can be a powerful tool for building professional connections
  • The importance of viewing work relationships as mutually beneficial transactions
  • Ways to reframe resilience and set healthy boundaries in your career
  • How generational perspectives influence our relationship with work

Quotable Moment:
"Work is inherently transactional... if you're just giving, you're empty. It's about reconfronting that transaction and making sure that you're getting as much as you're giving." - Faye McCray

Practical Takeaway:

When considering career changes or feeling burnt out, ask yourself "What if it all works out?" instead of catastrophizing. Take inventory of your skills, savings, and support system. Remember that your work should nourish you, not just drain you - and it's okay to make changes when that balance isn't right.

Resources Mentioned:

Connect With Our Guest:

To stay connected and continue the conversation, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.

And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.

If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!

Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!

Laura Hamill:

Music, welcome back for another episode of the happy at work podcast with Laura Tessa and Michael.

Tessa Misiaszek:

Each week, we have thoughtful conversations with leaders, founders and authors about happiness at work.

Michael McCarthy:

Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation. Enjoy the show.

Laura Hamill:

Welcome to the happy at work podcast today, we're so excited to have Faye McCarthy joining us. Faye, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so glad you're here. Well, what we always love to start with is tell us about you, tell us about what you do, and a bit about your career.

Faye McCray:

Yeah. So right now, I own my own consulting practice, but like so many things, twisty turny road to getting here. So studied law, practiced law for about a decade, and before kind of pivoting into media and journalism, it was very Passion Driven. I've always sort of been a closeted writer, so I was writing on the side for a really long time, and then sort of wrote my way into a career in media, which was fantastic, you know, really great works in the wellness space, health and wellness, which mirrored my path in law, because I practice health law, and then, you know, kind of pivoted into this space of consulting right now. So I work on strategic storytelling. So I work with with folks that are really interested in sort of getting to the root of their why and learning how better to connect with their audiences. I

Michael McCarthy:

love that. Can you tell us some of the can you tell us your favorite story about someone connecting through storytelling that you've helped?

Faye McCray:

Yeah, I'm, you know, I almost feel like it would be unfair to give a favorite, because I feel like I've just heard so many just beautiful stories of why people connect with the work they do and why they do. This is a bit of a sad one, but I had a client who lost a child, and it just devastated their family, and their oldest son had a very tough time with it and struggled with addiction for years. He's come out on the other side of it, thankfully. You know, they're they're on the mend as a family. But for her, it really sort of shaped how she showed up in the work that she did. So she was in the nonprofit space, particularly in behavioral health, and she is all about strengthening nonprofit. So it's this dry subject of nonprofit, but her whole goal is to make sure that like families aren't impacted the way that hers was. So she's a connector and a relationship builder. And for a long time, she sort of shied away from that story. I think she was sort of nervous to get really personal when she talked about her work, but I think she's realized now it's her superpower, because she cares, she cares, and the people that she works with, they know that she cares.

Michael McCarthy:

And just to follow up on that story, what was, what was the impact to her, and how she showed up to work after she was comfortable telling that story? What was the impact for her?

Faye McCray:

Yeah, I think connection, you know, I think that's the thing that I get the most from people, is like, when they're able to share these threads, whether or not it's a note in their inbox, or whether it's someone coming up to them after a keynote, or just wanting to work for them and work with them. I think those are the biggest things. And for her, I think, you know, the first time she shared that story, she immediately sent me a note, like there was a line waiting for her at the end of the conference to talk to her about her story and her work. And usually it's like, oh, yeah, this is great work. You know, I'd like to hear more about it. And now it's like, I want to know more about you. I want to work with you, which I think was a big differentiator for her. Yeah,

Laura Hamill:

that's huge. Yeah. So a lot of what we do at this podcast is we talk about the topic of well being at work, and how we think about just having better work, better lives in general. And so there was something that that I saw that you were kind of talking about, is around the idea of how careers should nourish us, yeah, and not drain us. And it's like, yeah, that's so beautiful. I love that so much. The nourish word is a good word, isn't it? Yeah. Just curious, what are your thoughts on that, and how do you think about that, and what work do you do around Yeah? You know,

Faye McCray:

for me, so this is harder, and I will say my pivot into strategic storytelling really came at me reaching sort of an impasse in my career. I was burnt out. I kind of reached a space where I was brought into a fantastic role, but it was sort of one of those glass Cliff rules where everything's on fire, and they're like, come fix it. And, you know, when you're a certain personality type, you dive head first. You're like, I'm gonna fix all the things. And what that did for me was I was working 1011, hour days, and I'm a mom. I have three boys, you know, I have a very demanding sort of Personal life In addition to work. And I just reached a point where I was like, Oh, this is unsustainable. And it, it was a scary place to arrive at, especially when, you know, I've been working in some capacity since I was 14 years old, you know, until all of a sudden, face this, like, I kind of have to move. Before I may not be here, right, because I'm not taking good care of myself. So reaching that point for me, sort of drilled home the importance of being in environments that are nourishing. And I think I made the bold decision to walk away and sort of take a bet on myself. It was the first time I walked away from something and not into something else. You know, I had an idea of sort of plans and things I wanted to do, but nothing concrete. But I felt there was an urgency at that point in my career, and in through the process of coming down from that building my business and self reflection, I realized, you know, work is inherently transactional. It's, you know, it's that you get something, you give something, and if you're just giving, you're empty, right? You're left with so little. So for me, it's all about sort of reconfronting that transaction in that relationship and making sure that you're getting as much as you're giving.

Laura Hamill:

That's so good, just one little follow up on that. But it's an interesting thing to come to that conclusion about being trans at yourself, isn't it? I bet I sort of had a similar experience in my career, too, where it's more like having understanding that when you can feel that really deep sense of engagement and you really feel connected and you identify with your work, it's such a good feeling. But that can sometimes cloud our judgment. Can it around, wait, this is a GET and give, and if I just am doing it's, yeah, that's a huge problem, even if you're getting some things back from the org, you know, but you're giving way more. Yeah, so, and, yeah, that idea of kind of separating a little bit and seeing it for what it is, but it's not you, it's, it's a, it's a contract, kind of, it's a, it's an agreement for the get and get, getting the gap. I love, I love the way you just said that that was cool.

Michael McCarthy:

So Faye, I think that a lot of people relate to what you just said. I'm getting burned out. I'm not getting nursed enough. I'm giving more than that. I'm getting and I recently just left the dog a job yesterday. And so we have the same thing no one ever talks about the middle part, that in between the driving yourself crazy. Is this a good decision? Should I do this or not? For the people who are listening, who are like, Yeah, look, I need the money, but I'm burned out, and I don't like it, and I don't have anything else lined up. What would you advise them on, like, certain things to guide them to a good decision? Like, like, how did you make your decision? You know, where you just didn't end up regretting it?

Faye McCray:

Yeah, that is such a great question, because that middle part that, going back, I drove my husband crazy, I drove my best friends, like, I mean, it was a lot right, of like, should I? Shouldn't I? Shouldn't I? And the interesting thing, and I will say this, almost unanimously, the people in my life were kind of like, do it like, you know, to the point even my career civil servant parents, my father was like, You need to just jump. Because I think they saw that I was in a position where I just wasn't prioritizing myself. And everybody wanted me around, you know. So I think having that support so that even if you're going to drive yourself a little nuts talking to everybody about it, I think if you have a strong circle of people that can really encourage you and sort of, you know, encourage you to do it a little bit afraid, and you know, that's ultimately what I had to do. But I think for those planners that are listening, because there is a part of me too that had to make sure that I felt comfortable from a financial standpoint as a parent, you know, all of the things you know, for me, it was sort of gaging my sort of appetite for the risk, right? Like, how much is in my savings? Do I have any other things that I can monetize? Do I have any other skill sets that I can do? And I have to say, I probably underestimated myself a little bit too, because I think when you're in this space of just working and giving and giving and giving and giving, you don't take inventory of your success. You don't take inventory of, like, what you've built and what you're capable of doing. So for me, I had to sort of get back to the basics of reminding myself, if I can work this hard for someone else, I can work this hard for myself, you know, I'm gonna be okay.

Michael McCarthy:

It's really, we just had a parallel experience. All of my friends like, Why are you hesitating? You know, it's, it's, it's pretty much the same, yeah. And then, then there is the financial part. But the one thing that I'll add in for me, and I'm curious if it happened to you, is I was so stressed out. You know, it was like, it's just such a negative environment leading and should I leave? And I don't like this, and I had a really hard time being resilient and creative and thinking about how tomorrow could be a better day doing something else. And I'm wondering, did you have that as well? And if so, how did you, how did you keep yourself in a good creative space? Yeah,

Faye McCray:

I think, you know, there's a great quote, I think, by Brene Brown, if it's like, shame can't bear to be spoken, you know. So I found myself when I was getting in the most dark places, like, kind of like, oh, this may not be okay. This, you know, may not work out. I said it out loud, you know, to the people that I trusted who are around me, and I use them as my sounding board to sort of like, let's work this out. Like, what's the worst thing that can happen? Like, where does this end up for you? And I think in the process of sort of catastrophizing, I was like, Oh, this is kind of ridiculous. Like, you know, the end of the day. I can go get another job, and I could figure that out, even if it's something that's below my title. You know, I'm not going to get to the point where my savings are depleted and nothing else is going to be left. You know, I still have my skill set, and, God willing, you have your health, right? You have the things that you need. So for me, it was a lot of that sort of, a lot of self talk. It was, it was tough, because I think for the first time in my life, you know, when you're in college, you're like, I'm going to graduate college, then, for me, I'm going to go to law school, then you're going to get the job, the clerkship, and you're going to do all these things. This was the first time where I was like, I don't know what's next. You know, I don't know what's coming next. There was a real scary part of that, but there was also, like, a delicious and wonderful part about that for the first time, because it was like, Oh, I don't know what's next, you know, like, who knows? You know what could come and what things can happen. And I'll say this too, I did a vision board because I have this wonderful hippie friend who was like, do the vision board? Like, put all the things down, right? And I put all the things in in one of them was a picture of Greece, right? Like, and it was more kind of a standing for international travel. I wanted to be able to travel. I was like, maybe a couple of years from now, I'll be able to do this from the kids or whatever, someone reaches out to me on Instagram and invites me to a writer's retreat six months after I do this vision board in Greece, right? You know, wild, right? You know. And I'm not one that kind of just subscribes to this, but I think because I was being receptive to what was next for me, there would be no way that that would have been on my radar had I been still working and doing the 11 hour, 12 hour days, you know, and I was able to make it happen. So, you know, just six months after I left, I found myself on a on a beach in Greece. It was just wild, right? Like I still am kind of like, was I actually there? But, you know, it's just one of those things that sometimes you just got to take those bets on yourself.

Laura Hamill:

It's so interesting how we go right to what's the worst that can Yeah, right. And like, thinking about all that like, oh, it's going to be so bad, it's going to be so hard, we can't even imagine what the best is going to be, right? You can't even picture it. But when you do, when you try, just try to frame it like, oh, maybe Greece or maybe, and then, tada, it cost you, right? And I'm with you. I like the whole manifesting thing. My daughter's night 20 now, and she was really into that for a while. I'm like, That is ridiculous. You know, come on, you gotta roll up your sleeves and do the hard work. But there's something to like, at least imagining it. About two years ago, my therapist had me do an exercise of, um, imagine your best day. Like, what if you could just create, like, what your best day would be, kind of a normal day. What does it look like? And I did the exercise, wrote it down on a piece of paper, and it was almost embarrassing to write, because it wasn't, you know, get up, run really fast, get in the car, sit in a commute. You know, be late to work, be in meetings all day. You know, what's not that it was more, you know, what if we could actually take our time in the morning and have slow coffee? And what if I could work out in the morning, and what if I could then read a little bit, and then I want to be with people, and maybe I could do that too. So anyway, to your point about Greece, a lot of the things that I started to be able to imagine, I could start making real. So I love, I love the way that you talked about that, and that's so cool, curious about I know this idea of over identifying with our work, and I've been definitely a person who's done that, but kind of thinking that I am my work now, even the idea of how you introduce yourself, right, starting, I'm an organizational psychologist, it's like, actually, you might be more than that. Can you tell us about how you think about the over identification with work and maybe the challenges we face around that? Yeah.

Faye McCray:

I mean, I think it stems from so many things, right? Because, like, when you're a kid, that first question you get is, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And you sort of set this framework for, like, that is my identity, right? You know, for me, I always loved writing, but when I told the adults I wanted to be a lawyer, right, they went wild, like, yes, right, you know. And then that becomes the thing. And I think, you know, I grew up working class in Queens in New York, you know, that's also a way to bridge that gap to privilege. You know, you start working hard. People are impressed. They start seeing you differently. So you start leading with that. And I think it was a perfect storm for me, kind of, to grow up and just be like, This is who I am, right? And I was the first I am a lawyer, or whatever the title was, you know, when you're at the party, and that's what you lead with, you know, and I think that I realized that that was a big part of leading to brown, like, I had to really say you played a huge role in this, like, you know, in in getting to this point, because they didn't take what you weren't willing to give. Like, no one was saying, work these 12 hours, but it was like, I'm gonna put this meeting on your schedule at this time. And then it's like, okay, you know, you don't push back by tomorrow, okay, you know, I'll do this, right? And you don't say no, you just keep saying yes, and you keep saying yes. And I think before you know it, you look up and you're like, where am I in all of this? Right? And I think for me, that's why it became so important to me as a part of sort of this, this period in my life. Of exploration is like, I gotta figure this out, and not just for me as a parent, as a person who may lead again and in certain environments, like I want to be in a place where people feel comfortable kind of showing up wholly

Laura Hamill:

and turning off. Yeah, so good.

Michael McCarthy:

I love the term of over identifying. And I also kind of want to bring in the opposite under identifying. And I didn't notice this from a generational perspective, the older generations, which I guess now I'm going to be a part of. You know, our career was who we are, who are you? I'm a lawyer. Who are you? I'm a psychologist. But I noticed Gen Z. I mean, I love them because they're so interesting and independent thinking. And I've noticed some people might think that they're under identifying that, you know, I have other things that are much more important to who and where I am. You're here to do the paycheck and fulfill some other needs I may have. Where do you think there's a sweet spot on over identifying, under identifying, healthy identification. Have you thought about maybe some guidelines on how people can see, like, hey, how am I doing? Am I being healthy with my work?

Faye McCray:

Yeah, you know, it's funny, because I haven't thought about this a lot, but I think that the way that each generation approached its work is almost a critique on the previous generation. So, like, I was raised by baby boomers who worked the same job, you know, kind of started and until retirement. And for me, you know, that was something that I was like, Well, I never want to do that, you know. So, you know, my career was sort of marked by moving and, you know, finding different experiences. But that also meant I worked all the time. And I think a lot of folks that are coming up now have witnessed us have sort of this experience of, like, just being completely entrenched in all of it, and they're like, I'm not doing that. So in some ways, I really admire Gen Z, you know, for that, in their ability to say, I'm gonna disconnect, I'm gonna prioritize other parts of my well being. It wasn't always easy as a supervisor with members of Gen Z because of but I think it was also instructive for me of the agency that they took. You know, I think there's something to be said for planning roots and developing skills and growing, but I also think there's a beauty in prioritizing your own growth. And I think it's just individual you know, at the end of the day, I think that you need to feel comfortable with your path, with what you're doing, and I think we can learn from one another in that way.

Laura Hamill:

So good. One of the topics in well being that I feel like is an interesting one at work, especially, is the topic of resilience. And I have such a mixed feeling about the topic of resilience, because I look back and I like, okay, I guess I've been resilient in my job and my life, and that's helped me a lot, right? But I also feel like it puts a lot of burden on people to be resilient, right? And to and to never, kind of expect something more from the system that they're working in to change and get better. And so I always, you know, kind of toy with the idea of, what does a resilient organization look like, or what does it look like to support people to be resilient, versus just expecting people to be resilient. But I don't, I don't know what your kind of thoughts are on that topic.

Faye McCray:

Yeah, it's funny. This used to come up a lot. So I used to lead a mental health website called psych Central, and this used to come up a lot for us, like this idea of resilience, and what are we asking people when we ask them to be resilient? You know, I think it's a worthwhile question. I think for me, I define resilience for so long, and like sticking to it and sticking it out, and like doing the thing and just kind of powering through, you know? And I realized there's beauty in saying enough, you know, like, that's enough. It's okay. It's okay to when you've kind of gotten your film, it's okay to say, you know, I want to move on from something. So I think it's how we define it, right? You know. I think your ability to sort of navigate through difficult situations and in different occult environments and pivot, you know, and all of those things, is a beautiful thing. It's a survival tactic, you know. But not if you're if you're suffering, you know. Not if you're in a space where you know, you're realizing, like you're at your breaking point. There's something, you know, there's something not so great

Michael McCarthy:

about that. Yeah, for sure, you make an interesting point. It can also be hard to have perspective when you're in something and it gets tougher and it's like, okay, we'll just lean in, just more. And you go on that path, and when that's not working out, like, well, you're not resilient enough. Like, you've really gotta, you know, squeeze the squeeze some more juice out of the lemon. And of course, there's always that point of like, well, when do you stop? When do you like, look, it's just time to cut this. And one thing that I've done is I've said to myself, and I always get the same answer. I've done this for like, 20 years, knowing what I know now, would I say yes to this? And I'd be like, No way. And I'm wondering, do you have any like, cut offs or metrics where you know things are just getting tougher, tougher, tougher, and you're trying to do the resilience and lean in? Is there a point at which you say enough? And. Up, and how would people gage that? Yeah,

Faye McCray:

you know, it's almost, you know, for me, you know, I think there's just a reframing of, sort of my objectives in a work environment like naturally, you know, I want to be a team player. I want to give my my best. I want to do the job as assigned, right? But I also have my own metrics that I go into environments with now, you know, and a lot of them revolve around growth, right? Am I growing? Am I learning? You know, do I feel like for whatever's next, I'm preparing myself, you know, in some framework, you know, within the context of this, of this environment, you know. So for me, if those things are stepped on, you know, or if it's just no longer aligned with my values. Those are usually a sign if I'm just working for the sake of work, you know. And I'm almost like spinning on a wheel and not getting anywhere, you know, selfishly, I probably look more at it myself, you know. And what I need, you know, in those environments, I remember having an employee years ago coming into an organization, and she told me one of our first meetings, you know, I've wanted to get promoted, you know, for years, I've, you know, poached a couple times. People wanted me to go to these other environments, but I stayed loyal. You know. I remember thinking at the time like, that's good, you know, but sort of in retrospect, I was like, girl, you should have laughed. Had this opportunity to grow and be a part of these other but the loyalty was just so it was just so interesting. And, you know, just brings me to sort of another point about our relationship with work, you know, it's almost like there's a parental sort of like you go from your parents house to these environments, and you expect these job opportunities to sort of fill this role for you, you know, and you stop prioritizing what you need, you know. And in her case, she was fantastic and amazing. Unfortunately, I came in sort of inheriting a budget where I just didn't have the ability, you know. And as a leader, it's, it's sort of counterintuitive to say, look for other things, you know, in an environment, because you need people, but you have to be, you have to take that on yourself. Like to be able to look out for yourself and do those things,

Laura Hamill:

that's so such a good point. And the thing that you said kind of within a lot of that is you have to know what you need. You have to know what you value. And I think that's for many of us. It takes a long time to figure that out, right? You kind of think, oh, I need what they're giving, or I value what they're offering, yeah, getting clear about that for yourself is sometimes really challenging, because there's some things that maybe you could go, you know, either way, on, but other things that you need to understand about yourself to to know what, what's really the stuff that you don't want to waver on. Yeah? So yeah, that's such a good point. Well, we are almost done with our time together. Faye, this has been wonderful. I wonder, could you just kind of close us out with some words of advice? Or, you know, as people are thinking about, you know, maybe some people who are listening are struggling with some of the same things that you've gone through. What are some things you would like to just leave them with? Yeah,

Faye McCray:

you know, I would say just because I am a catastrophizer and an anxious one. You know, I started a newsletter called What if it's all works out? It's on sub stack. And part of it is because I ask myself that question every day when I'm thinking about something new, when I'm thinking about doing something that I'm afraid of. It is so easy to go down that road, to just start thinking of all the ways that it's going to go wrong or it won't work. But like, what if it does right? Like, what if it all works out? What if it's okay? So, you know, I just want to encourage folks to ask themselves that question. It was not a completely smooth ride, you know, it was bumpy. It was fearful there. You know, I drove, like I said, everyone in my life crazy, like thinking about all the things, but it is so much sweeter than being in a place where I didn't see the possibilities of something better, because I was so afraid to look right. It's just so much better to be in a place where you're open and receptive to that and you know, it's exciting. You know, don't be afraid. You know, don't be afraid of the possibilities that it could all work out. So

Laura Hamill:

good. Awesome. Faye, thank you so much for joining us. We just love talking with you. So thanks so much. Thank you. Bye, bye, bye.

Michael McCarthy:

We hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to hear future episodes, be sure to subscribe to the happy at work podcast and leave us a review with your thoughts.

Tessa Misiaszek:

Are you interested in speaking on a future episode, or want to collaborate with us. Let us know you can send us an email at admin, at happy, at work, podcast.com,

Laura Hamill:

and lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for even more happiness. See you soon. You

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Laura Hamill, PhD

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Michael McCarthy

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Tessa Misiaszek, PhD

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Braden Misiaszek

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