The Happy at Work Podcast
The Happy at Work podcast explores the intersection of organizational culture, positive psychology, and employee branding to create thriving workplaces. Our expert hosts—Dr. Laura Hamill, Michael McCarthy, and Dr. Tessa Misiaszek—bring diverse perspectives and deep expertise to uncover practical strategies for fostering happiness and success at work.
We engage with various guests, including organizational leaders, HR professionals, psychologists, researchers, and employees across various industries. Through thought-provoking conversations, we delve into:
- How organizational culture shapes employee experiences and drives engagement
- Evidence-based positive psychology strategies that boost both human flourishing and business metrics
- Innovative approaches to align brand identity with employee experience and operationalize company values
Our mission is to give listeners actionable insights and tools to transform their workplaces. Whether you're a CEO, an HR professional, a manager, or an employee seeking to make a positive impact, the Happy at Work podcast offers valuable perspectives to help you create a more fulfilling, productive, and positive work environment.
Join us as we explore the cutting edge of workplace well-being and performance, uncovering the strategies that lead to truly happy, engaged, and successful organizations.
The Happy at Work Podcast
Breaking Free from Outdated Leadership Models with Luis Marrero
Luis Marrero, CEO of the Boston Institute for Meaningful Purpose, reveals how our deeply held unconscious beliefs about human nature prevent workplace engagement from improving despite decades of research and initiatives.
• Working with Transaction Analysis Psychology within major companies like Disney and DEC before founding the Boston Institute in 1986
• Distinguishing between meaning (about being) and purpose (about doing) - purpose fulfills meaning
• Explaining why workplace engagement statistics haven't improved in 20 years despite abundant knowledge
• Tracing how historical figures like Machiavelli and Adam Smith embedded harmful assumptions about human nature into organizational structures
• Contrasting Theory X management (assuming employees are lazy and untrustworthy) with meaningful purpose psychology
• Highlighting the importance of organizations leading with the social component before technical and business components
• Describing the "Cassandra Effect" - having answers but being unable to see or believe them
• Introducing the meaning analysis framework that helps identify quality of meanings through attribution, intelligence, health, harmony, and mindfulness
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And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.
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Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at Work podcast with Laura, tessa and Michael. Each week, we have thoughtful conversations with leaders, founders and authors about happiness at work.
Speaker 2:Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation. Enjoy the show. Welcome to the Happy at Work podcast. Today, we're very excited to have our guest, Luis Marrero, who is the CEO of the Boston Institute for Meaningful Purpose. Luis, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you for bringing me on.
Speaker 2:We would love to hear a little bit about your background. Can you tell us about your career journey, your path, and how did you end up as being the CEO of the Boston Institute for Meaningful Purpose?
Speaker 3:Sure. So I was born and raised in Puerto Rico, but I've lived most of my life in the continent. In terms of education, I went to a Catholic university called Siena Heights University in Michigan. I majored in history, which I have leveraged very well and has helped me very much in my career, and I did my master's program also at the University of Puerto Rico, but it was in human resource management. So I did my thesis in transaction analysis psychology. So after that, for many years, I was an organization development transaction analyst, if you will, and I practiced transaction analysis within companies.
Speaker 3:So I've worked for brand companies like the Disney company, the former DEC I don't know if you remember a famous DEC from years ago I spent a lot of years with DEC. Yse Business Psychologist was the last company I worked for as an employee and then after that I went on my own. Excuse me, but I founded the Austin Institute back in 1986. And since then we've been doing studies and research on this concept of meaningful purpose psychology. I wrote my first book back in 2013. The Path to a Meaningful Purpose, and as co-author, I was going to call it Co-author of the End of Pursuit. We wrote the second book, which is Meaningful Purpose, also expanding into theory, if you will, and I'm working on my third book now, meaning Antics and the Cassandra Effect, which I hope to publish in the next year, sometime next year. That's a work in progress, so that's a little bit of background about myself.
Speaker 4:So, luis, first of all, incredibly impressive. So Luis, first of all, incredibly impressive, and it's really fascinating to hear that you got your master's in HR, meaningfulness and purpose and these other topics that are really relevant today, especially post-pandemic. I think you hear more and more companies talking about the importance of purpose and meaningfulness of work and these types of themes, but what does it mean to you in the work that you do at the Boston Institute for Meaningful Purpose? What does that mean? To have purpose, to have purpose at work. What does that look like?
Speaker 3:What we do is to help people understand the role that meaning plays in behavior. So it's not only about meaning of life, it's daily interactions with people, like, if you know, like I'm talking to you, we're exchanging meanings, we're going back and forth in terms of meaning. So there's a semantic component, there's also that relational component. So what we do is we study the quality of that meaning to be able to see what kind of impact does it have, and is it positive, negative, does it lead to good ends? Bad ends, as the case may be effective, ineffective. So we help people understand.
Speaker 3:I am living my life as what is my meaning. Couples understand we're living our marriage as what is its meaning. We help companies understand we're practicing our leadership practices and management practices as what is our meaning, and then to be able to understand why the consequences. So if you don't like the consequence, you go back to the meaning to say, hey, okay, viktor Frankl defined that meaning as what is meant. So what is your meaning that is leading to this particular end? So people then can evaluate the quality and then make decisions whether they want to improve the outcomes by changing the meaning. To keep it simple.
Speaker 2:I love that and I have a question about the intersection of meaningful purpose and engagement at work. And when I look at the data from Gallup, when you look at the chart that shows who's engaged, who's not engaged, who's actively disengaged, the numbers really haven't moved since they started tracking the data. It's been about, you know, we're coming on like two decades now, but we know all this information, all these research studies do this. Try that. You know this actually moves key metrics. Why isn't the needle moving?
Speaker 3:This is where history comes in. To partially answer your question in part. To partially answer your question. What has happened was people in the past, like in Machiavelli, for instance, not that he invented, he codified the fact that you could be a narcissist and you needed to be a narcissist in order to survive. I don't know if you read the Prince, but that's pretty much set a stage in terms of how to lead, how to manage. So if you're a monarchy in Europe and you're reading Machiavelli, even though a lot of people criticize them, they were pretty much saying, yeah, this is the way to govern. So then what kind of laws would you enact in order to deal with this advice that the prince is providing? Machiavelli is providing?
Speaker 3:So it did have an influence in leadership and management thinking. It creates structures of management and leadership in governments and organizations. Another one could be Adam Smith. Back in 1776. He was the first one to say it, but he codified it.
Speaker 3:People are lazy. So if people are lazy and you have to be a narcissist, how does that affect organizational behavior, how we structure, how we design things? You have an Adam Smith not Adam Smith, but the theory of evolution, you know, coming out and saying some people are better than others and you have this ranking thing. That happens and it gives license to people like Adolf Hitler to, oh, kill people just because they're less than. But all that kind of thinking just to mention three names it all becomes part of the psyche of how people are thinking about how to govern, how to lead, how to do things, and it's at a very deep, unconscious level. People are not even aware that it's influencing them. But a lot of organizational theory and design is based on the wrong assumptions and, as a result, the structures, the systems, for instance, are designed in a way to practice this corrupt, incorrect meanings about what people are all about and how you manage a company.
Speaker 3:Let me give you one specific example, which I think is one of the most insulting things you can do to a human being. Typically, I do this exercise with people and I ask them the question what do you do to incent people to? You know, create conditions where people can be their best, and usually what happens is the type of responses that we'll hear is well, we need to motivate them. Now think about this If I say that I have to motivate you, what is my meaning about you? What opinion do I have about you? You're not motivated, that's right.
Speaker 2:I You're not motivated.
Speaker 3:You're lazy, I have to do something on your behalf. You see, that's part of how organizations are built, that I have to have structures where you have people on the top telling, motivating people, because they're lazy. They might say it that way, but that's pretty much the underlying force. So in logotheliology, what we have discovered is that you can bring positive psychology, you can bring good concepts to bear and present them to people, but there's this other force that is countering it. We call it meaning antics. It's the antics to something positive.
Speaker 3:So what we do is to help people see what is the content of those meanings, where they came from, so that they can. Then you cannot erase it. You cannot erase things from your mind, but you can take away the power of the meaning, that significance, that opinion, that view, that perspective, that mindset, so that you can give more force to what is positive and constructive. So until people are aware that they're operating on their wrong meanings, corrupt meanings, incorrect meanings, incomplete meanings, they will continue to behave the way they're doing and then managing the way that they're managing. So you have to remove stuff in order to put something in place that is better.
Speaker 2:So can I conclude that let's say that I'm of this mindset that you shared. Like Adam Smith, people are naturally lazy and then when I get all these different things I can do to increase engagement in the workplace, I don't really take it very seriously because I say, well, my core people are lazy, so this stuff isn't going to work, so why bother trying it? Is that what we're?
Speaker 3:hearing. Yeah, just look at the press about companies like Amazon or Boeing recently, and when you read about it and you hear the description, what leaders are saying they're going back to theory X is well and alive in many companies and I say all of them. But theory X is very well and alive, this operating assumptions about how to lead people, what people are, are still embedded in the thinking of many people, many leaders, which prevents them then, of course, to balance appropriately the social, the technical and the business to allow for human thriving. And in those three components, our bias is that the social component is first among equals. It should be leading the technical and the business components. So I'll leave it at that up to this point. Any other questions then? I'll leave it at that up to this point. Any other questions that I'll be happy to? Yeah?
Speaker 4:I would love to follow up, because you talked about Theory X and kind of what Amazon is doing. Can you speak a little bit more about what you mean by that? Because just for our listeners to really understand what is your premise, you know as to how Amazon maybe is are treating their people versus what would be the ideal state that we would see if a company was really leading with that social component versus business and technical. What would that look like?
Speaker 3:What I would say go to the press and look at their own words to see what's not working, pretty much. And theory X is employees can be trusted. They're lazy all these things that we got from people in the past, frederick Taylor type philosophy, even though it has material, but it's still present, just to mention Darwin and some of the others. The idea is, this is where logo scriptology comes in, which means, then, that I need to replace the current meaning in view that I have of people the attributions I'm making about employees, for instance, or the attributions I'm making about what is a leader or the role of the leader and then I have to replace it with something different. So the idea would be like, for instance, this is second wave organization development and, according to low ethereality, you would decide. First of all, you would need to educate people around what is meaningful and what is not meaningful. Positive psychology contributes a lot to that, by the way, which is I'm a strong fan of positive psychology. So what you would do is you would train your leaders to think about what is the current narrative, the plot and the script in this company when we talk about employees, which is an expression of the opinions that we have to them Like, for instance, we have to control them, sort of a language sort of thing. So if it was a different and more positive language, what would that script look like? So it's about re-scripting and re-plotting what's happening. So you would have then teach your leaders not only teach them, but they need to first. Let me say this also before that something that is different about lovoteliology from other sciences this is lovoteliology is not something that you come primarily to learn to do something with it. Lovoteliology you learn to live it, to live it, practice it in your life first. Once you remove the log from your eye, you can see much more clearly. Then you can help other people. So low teleology starts with helping people first of all understand themselves, see what works, it's not working, what is the role of meaning there and how can they clean up their meaning so that they can do something positive. So it starts with that. First me applying it to myself. Versus I start, you know, doing things with other people. So that's the starting point, but versus I start doing things with other people. So that's the starting point. But if you apply it to a company, just like quality that everybody has to learn it, everybody will have to learn meaningful purpose psychology, and in essence it is. What does it mean to be human? What is the meaning of life? What makes life meaningful? And then not based on what to do, it's what to be. The do will follow later. Meaning is about being, purpose about doing. The role of purpose is to fulfill meanings. So the training is you educate people around meaningful purpose psychology, help them go through their own individual journey through workshops and laboratories and, once they have some reasonable level of lucidity, the task is to say okay, as a leader, what kind of an experience do I want the employees to have with me? Positive experience. What does that look like? Say, okay, as a leader, what kind of an experience do I want the employees to have with me? Positive experience. What does that look like?
Speaker 3:What would I be saying different from what I'm saying today? What would I be thinking differently? What would I be feeling differently? Even in conflict, where I develop a new narrative, a new language, positive language, constructive language. The same thing then happens with employees. If we're going to get along, if we're going to get along with leadership, if we're going to get along, provide a great service to our clients, what would I be saying and a company who's done a great job at this is Disney. I worked for Disney for many, many years. Disney does an excellent job around that. They have pretty much down pat that we're here to create conditions where, for the client, that gets us happy. So what would I be saying? How would I be behaving? What's the script?
Speaker 3:So then, the next level is, if I want employees to feel this way in the company and to have this narrative about the experience of working in the company, what kinds of systems do I need to create?
Speaker 3:What processes, okay, what technologies will create conditions where I'm going to make that employee smile, come to work with energy, enthusiasm? We call them anima. I'm not talking about Carl Jung, I'm talking anima from a philosophical point of view, that I have a life force that brings me to work based on the meaning that I'm giving to what works means. So leadership and employees work in creating systems, organizations that are user-friendly for the user, the employee, and facilitates what, providing service to the guests and to one another. So another measure would be what is the experience that I want the guests to have? I want the guests to be happy, to be satisfied. So what is the narrative story. What are the technologies, the system, the touch points that I'm having with that client? What do they need to do so that the client feels this positive experience, have this positive experience, and then that leads to business results. And that's where the cash comes in when you do a very good job.
Speaker 4:So I mean this is so fascinating to me because in a different lane but it sounds so similar a colleague and I wrote a book around branding. But it sounds so similar A colleague and I wrote a book around branding. Really, the premise of the book is the operationalizing of brand values. That externally, if you're espousing certain values about your company and what you stand for and many times this is done for marketing purposes but if you are a company that really expresses a certain level of values, that if you're not operationalizing those expresses a certain level of values, that if you're not operationalizing those values internally within the organization, by the way you treat people by the type of leadership that you're exhibiting, by the processes and structures. And I really love that you're bringing that particular piece up, because a lot of times people think it's just about the leaders and don't understand that the structures and the infrastructure also plays such an important role in making sure that that actually gets operationalized through a company that if you're not doing those things then you are incredibly inauthentic essentially as a company.
Speaker 4:And that in this day and age, with such an aware younger generation that's been dealing, you know, that's hypercognitive, that deals with all sorts of types of information. You know that's hypercognitive, that deals with all sorts of types of information. You know, and can process it very, very quickly, that they see through that very, very fast as well. And so it's kind of interesting the way you're describing it, because I almost feel like we're at this moment in time, because of massive amounts of data and information, the way that we process that. It almost comes across more clearly if you don't have that authentic meaningfulness or purpose in the way that you're working with others, that that gets recognized more readily than perhaps it would have 50 years ago in the workplace.
Speaker 3:Hoy, you mentioned the genuineness and it goes back to Michael's original question in terms of what is it that's preventing this? And one of the big mistakes that a lot of consulting firms do and people in this line of business is the emphasis on the to-do. Here's a checklist, here's the process you need to follow. The to-do is purposeful. It's the feel of competencies and skills and abilities and how to make things happen While meaning, which, in purpose, can't happen without a meaning. But the meaning is that fault the checklist.
Speaker 3:In order for us to be much more profitable, we have to do these things. You have to treat people this way, so it becomes mechanical. That's different from when it comes from the ethos. Okay, that you as a person are principled. You have this very strong belief that human beings mean something, that, like Franco said, you should not approach people from utility perspective but from a dignity perspective, and that they have potential and when you release that potential, it can do great things for everybody. So that's why we talk about, you know, the ethos leads to the anima, to the ergos. The ergos is where you actually conduct yourself in an ethical way, but it's because you have those meanings. So the authentic thing that you mentioned is very critical, but it has to come from the heart, where you really truly, truly, truly believe that people do deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, and I'm going to create and help create systems and processes and standards where we create this machine, okay, the system where we bring the best of everybody to serve, and that's at the heart of our work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what I love is the opera, how you can bring to life these ideas. And when you bring up the idea about Disney and you talk about dignity and respect, what pops up for me is when I went to Disney World the first time in Orlando, florida, I remember all the workers that were there. They're all smiling, they're all happy and they called them Imagineers. And when I look back at that name now, it says so much it's fun, it's respectful, it says that you have value because you're an engineer and that's an important job and it makes imagination really important as well. And I think just that one word brings in the dignity and respect that you're talking about.
Speaker 2:And I'd love to know for someone who's willing to change and maybe they're a little bit like wow, this is pretty heavy stuff that Luis is talking about. How do I bring this into the real world? Like, how do I baby step this? What's one or two things that you think anyone could just give it a try just to see the magic of what you're talking about? What are some baby steps people could do right now?
Speaker 3:Well, I have a bias in the fundamentals, know the fundamentals of meaningful purpose, psychology and, in particular, you know what is the meaning and what is the role that meaning plays in my life. So a big step might be I am living my life, as is what it's meaning, and we have tools, and you know, to help people through that process. But it's basically saying, if something is going well for me, what is it that is contributing to that? And if you understand the factors of the construct which we don't have a lot of time, but there's actual those factors can help you answer some basic questions that will tell you, for instance, what is the quality of that meaning. It explains why I'm having a positive result or not having a positive result. So, for instance, one of them is an attribution. You know, one of the factors is attribution. So what I'm attributing is true about my wife or my my, you know or my son, or my employee, or my boss, or, as the case may be, I am going to behave consistently with that attribution that I've made of that person.
Speaker 3:So then we also have what is called meaning quality. What is the quality of that meaning? Is it intelligent? And when I say intelligent, it's a difference between a fact, an empirical fact, and an opinion. There's an intelligence to meaning. So we help people explore the quality of those meanings.
Speaker 3:That meaning also has another quality component, which is called health. It's a prosocial or antisocial, and we have tools that help people pretty much discover that. We also have another component of quality of a meaning, which is harmony Do I have cognitive dissonance or am I centered and all my thoughts are harmonious? And cooperation. You know the factors are cooperating to a particular end. And then mindfulness. You know being aware. Am I aware of what's happening internally and externally? So when people learn those tools, they have much more, let's say, control of and awareness of what's really happening inside of me, what is happening outside of me and how to address the situation much more appropriately. So we call it meaning analysis. That leads to insight, and that insight then helps you to contrast the current status against an ideal state. And then the task is how do I close the gaps? By using the factors of the meaning, to be very precise, of what needs to be changed, and we have had fantastic results as a result of that.
Speaker 4:So it sounds like, luis, we have to read your books, because that would help clarify a lot of these, my blogs too, and your blogs, but I know you're working on a third book and you spoke about it at the very top of the to read your books, because that would help clarify a lot of these my blogs too, and your blogs.
Speaker 4:But I know you're working on a third book and you spoke about it at the very top of the podcast, which in your reference, the Cassandra effect. Can you talk a little bit about what that is, because I had not heard that before you mentioned it at the top of the podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, meaningful purpose psychology have said this, you know started because of the paradox that people, you know, a world doesn't suffer. People don't suffer for a lack of answers. The answers are there. So the Cassandra effect comes again from Greek mythology and it's about this dude, apollos, this god who comes down from Olympus and he's the god of prophecy and other gifts. And he goes to this city called Troy and he goes to the royal court as a human, you know, a human form, goes to the royal court and meets with the king and the queen and he notices a very beautiful princess by the name of Cassandra and he starts to engage with her and she's very bright and intelligent and talented and he's really impressed with Cassandra. So he gives her the gift of truth that she'll be able to say the truth, but not only that she'll be able to see into the future, she'll be able to prophesy and see the truth of what's coming in the future. So he gives her that gift. But then he had a hidden agenda and he starts making advancements and she says whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, I'm a virtuous woman, I'm not going to go there. So he gets angry at her and he curses her and the curse is and I cannot take away from you the gift of saying the truth in prophecy but I'm going to curse you with the curse that nobody's going to believe what you say, they will not believe your truth, and he goes away huffing and puffing. So what happens? Being a prophet, she can see into the future and she tells her parents the Greeks are plotting against us, but nobody believes her. And she says the Greeks are coming, but nobody believes her. The Greeks build this horse and there are soldiers inside and Achilles is there and to come into the city. If you allow them in, they're going to destroy us and you know the rest of the story. Eventually she dies, also as part of the sad story. So the Cassandra paradox is the fact that people have answers before them, but they're not knowledge. And the curse the effect is the curse, which is not only on Cassandra, not being a people unbeliever is the fact that the people of Troia also curse. Where the inability and unwillingness to be able to see reality and truth, as it is so meaningful, purpose psychology.
Speaker 3:What it does is to help people work out the curse and to claim their birthright that was taken away from their childhood by being given trash that really doesn't reflect who they are and their potential and their power. Just like we inherited Machiavellian thinking and narcissism. And you know Charles Darwin philosophy and so forth. So I could keep on going the list of historical figures that help shape what we call organizational theory and leadership theory. But that's what we do is to help people pretty much understand. How am I preventing myself from thriving? And many times they can't see. They can't see. So our task is to help them see, to remove again the log so they can see much more clearly and not I can see clearly. Then I can start helping people. Before that, we don't encourage that people you know, to help people unless you have clean your own act, because you can do harm and damage, especially if you're a therapist type of thing I'm talking here. You know some roles more than more than not.
Speaker 4:It's up, it's. It's fascinating just because you're describing that, and I kind of feel like we're having a cassandra effect within our society. We are we are your way. Things are happening right in front of our eyes and we're either choosing not to see it or we're just not really believing what we're seeing, um, and what it is but it's because it's because of low quality meaning.
Speaker 3:So go ahead, aiko, I'm sorry, I was just saying.
Speaker 2:I think I'm getting the full circle for our listeners on why is the needle not moving on engagement since they started measuring it approximately 20 years ago, and it sounds like it's the Cassandra effect on some leadership because they're not believing that these things work. And I might argue that the lazy ones aren't the workers, it's the leaders that are too lazy to change and look at the good answers that are in front of them and I'm curious what you think about that.
Speaker 3:I think it's all of the above, all of us in particular, including myself. I know that I have biases. I know that I have biases. I know that I have blind spots. That's why, my first book, I sort of talk about the theory, but I talk about being a guinea pig and observing myself as I learn this stuff and apply it to myself. And the latter part of each chapter I'm reporting how, when I implemented this or applied this. This is how it affected me. So I confess that I'm incomplete, I confess that I have faults, but that's part of the journey.
Speaker 3:You know where you're actually having the integrity to confront yourself and look at the content of your system, your values, and that's just the question am I really living up to them too? You know, is my public and private identity matching pretty much, or am I to different people, what I feel inside and how I'm projecting myself outside, that perspective of engagement where people are resisting engaging in the company because what they attribute is being attributed about them, how the belief system that people cannot be trusted, the value system I'm talking about here, factors of the meaning construct, the value system, which is not necessarily ethical system, you know, in regards to opinion, that they have to people. Values is what allows us to self-regulate, by the way, when the attributions, the belief systems and the value systems are incomplete or corrupt, what it does is it has an effect on another factor, which is feeling how I feel about working here, how do I feel about working here? And an assister of feeling. Another factor of the construct is attitudes, and attitudes I move away from something or move close to something. Okay, so you know the continuum of an attitude.
Speaker 3:So attitudes is what determines how committed people are going to be, how engaged they're going to be, because of how they feel. And that they feel and have that attitude because what that's being attributed about them, the belief system, and then the values that they are experiencing. So my values are being violated because of my sense of fairness. Let's say my values are being violated because of my sense of fairness. Let's say, and they have this opinion that I have to be managed, that I need to be motivated, because they have this opinion of me. And again, like we say, go to the press and look at some of these companies that have been having scandals recently and you'll see the script. That is the way we think about employees and that's why the engagement remains stubborn, and it will remain stubborn until we break the Cassandra effect.
Speaker 4:Wow, this has been and I hope this doesn't come across trite, but this has been one of the most meaningful podcast discussions we've had in a really long time. Louise, thank you so much. I could listen to you all day. I'm definitely going to purchase your books, but I think what the aha for me throughout this conversation was even just simplifying that, and I hope I get this right. Meaning is about being, but purpose is about doing right. So it's almost like the action arm of meaning, of having meaningfulness, is acting with purpose. So I feel like that is so clarifying for me and it just, of course, I'm now recalling every working experience I've ever had and every boss I've ever encountered and saying, nope, they didn't have that meaning. So this has been an amazing half hour. Thank you so much for joining us and I hope that you'll come back, especially after you publish your third book, and tell us more about the Cassandra Effect. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thank you, luis, and thank you for listening in everyone, and we'll see you for our next episode. Take care everybody. Next episode Take care everybody. We hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to hear future episodes, be sure to subscribe to the Happy at Work podcast and leave us a review with your thoughts.
Speaker 1:Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or want to collaborate with us? Let us know. You can send us an email at admin at happyatworkpodcastcom. And, lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for even more happiness. See you soon.
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