The Happy at Work Podcast
The Happy at Work podcast explores the intersection of organizational culture, positive psychology, and employee branding to create thriving workplaces. Our expert hosts—Dr. Laura Hamill, Michael McCarthy, and Dr. Tessa Misiaszek—bring diverse perspectives and deep expertise to uncover practical strategies for fostering happiness and success at work.
We engage with various guests, including organizational leaders, HR professionals, psychologists, researchers, and employees across various industries. Through thought-provoking conversations, we delve into:
- How organizational culture shapes employee experiences and drives engagement
- Evidence-based positive psychology strategies that boost both human flourishing and business metrics
- Innovative approaches to align brand identity with employee experience and operationalize company values
Our mission is to give listeners actionable insights and tools to transform their workplaces. Whether you're a CEO, an HR professional, a manager, or an employee seeking to make a positive impact, the Happy at Work podcast offers valuable perspectives to help you create a more fulfilling, productive, and positive work environment.
Join us as we explore the cutting edge of workplace well-being and performance, uncovering the strategies that lead to truly happy, engaged, and successful organizations.
The Happy at Work Podcast
The Art of Conscious Conversations with Chuck Wisner
Chuck Wisner, author of "The Art of Conscious Conversations," shares transformative insights on how to improve workplace communication through self-awareness, understanding our physical responses to triggering situations, and mastering four essential types of conversations.
• Chuck's journey from musician to architect to communication expert was sparked by witnessing effective conflict resolution
• Our internal dialogue (the "CADs") often contains judgments and negativity that we must learn to process constructively
• Four key questions can transform conversations: examining desires, concerns, authority issues, and standards
• Physical reactions like dry mouth, eye twitches, or tension serve as early warning signs of emotional triggers
• The powerful "circuit breaker" technique helps pause reactive responses when emotionally triggered
• Our personal stories shape how we approach conversations, but detaching from unhelpful narratives is crucial
• "A request without a possible no isn't a request—it's a demand"
• Using the counteroffer approach instead of defaulting to yes helps create promises you can actually keep
• Younger generations often demonstrate better boundary-setting and openness to communication techniques
• True listening requires letting go of the need to constantly demonstrate intelligence through talking
Learn more about conscious conversations and transforming your communication in Chuck Wisner's book "The Art of Conscious Conversations: Transforming How We Talk, Listen, and Interact."
To stay connected and continue the conversation, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn.
And don't forget to check out our previous episodes for more tips and strategies to boost your workplace happiness. You can find them on your favorite podcast platform or on our website.
If you have any questions, comments, or topic suggestions for future episodes, please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you!
Stay inspired, stay motivated, and stay happy at work!
Welcome back for another episode of the Happy at Work podcast with Laura, tessa and Michael. Each week, we have thoughtful conversations with leaders, founders and authors about happiness at work.
Speaker 2:Tune in each Thursday for a new conversation. Enjoy the show.
Speaker 3:Hi everyone. Welcome to the Happy at Work podcast. We are thrilled to have today with us Chuck Wisner, who is the author of the Art of Conscious Conversations, transforming how we Talk, listen and Interact, and so I know I am excited just to understand better what all of that means in the context of your book. Welcome, chuck, to the Happy at Work podcast.
Speaker 4:Thank you for having me Happy to be here.
Speaker 3:Wonderful. So let's just start kind of from the beginning and tell us a little bit about your career and how that has evolved over the years, and then what brought you to write this particular book.
Speaker 4:Okay, writing the book is my fourth career, so, and all happy careers. My first career was I was a musician, so I'm a percussionist. I played professionally and I blah, blah, blah. Then I moved to Boston to go to architecture school, so I'm trained formally as an architect and worked in that field for 20 years and was a partner at a firm Found.
Speaker 4:All about conflict in the building industry lots of big egos and big money fighting all the time, and through that conflict there's conflict lessons. And also I had a partner who became an alcoholic and as we grew from a small firm of seven or eight guys hanging around to a larger firm, that was a problem. We didn't know what to do Dumb, smart architects. So we hired in some help and we ended up with a woman named Linda Reed who was working in the leadership field around Boston Consulting. And I've always had a philosophical, spiritual sort of dimension to my life and when Linda came in and worked with us individually and worked with us as a group, I was like dumbfounded. I was like how did she do that? How did she ask us those questions? How did she get us to come together? How did she help us out the other end and it felt like magic.
Speaker 4:We became friends and I got interested and I started reading, I started studying and for four years I did that. I studied the ontology of language, I became a mediator, I did a certification in body-mind therapy all of this sort of exploration and then one day, four years later, I sold my partnership in architecture and started a whole new career. And then I've been in that for 25 years and through all my dealers and my clients loving the work we were doing, but no book that compiled a lot of complexity around language and conversations, I decided that I would try it in my hand at writing that book. So sorry about the long story.
Speaker 2:I love that. It's really interesting just how much we can get with language and listening, and in the work that Tessa and I do at the intersection of psychology and business, we find that people don't really listen that much. They're usually just waiting for you to stop so that they could say something more interesting. And I'm curious what are the four types of questions in your book that you feel are really important for our listeners to be aware of?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So just riffing off your listening piece, my basic idea, my basic lesson and what I've learned and also try to teach is that we don't listen well, because we're too engaged in our own story, you know. And then not only do we have a story that we get our ego gets hooked to, but we have an internal dialogue that I like to call the CADs the CADs in our brain running around making trouble, because they're really always in there telling us no, no, you're right, they're wrong as our ego. But then if you really start investigating your private conversation, there's a lot to learn from it. And I've done this exercise with hundreds of people where I ask them to do the left-hand, right-hand column exercise that Chris Arduous, I think, created back in the 70s, and on one side of the paper you write what was said as a record. At the left side you write what you were feeling and thinking. And the surprising thing is the number of people majority of people when they write down their private conversation, how surprised they are.
Speaker 4:So I say, well, what's there? And they say, well, curse words, judgments, negativity, blame, shame, judgment. And so then it's the dilemma. It's like, okay, well, you can't hold that inside because it's not healthy. You can't blurt it out because you'll ruin your relationship or lose your job. And what do you do? You process it. And so, through my work, I always found people aware of that but never knew how to work it. So they became something useful. And so the four questions that I just say write these on a sticky note and remember them, because it's A it's a way to process your own judgments and negativity, and B, it's a way to ask good questions.
Speaker 4:So the four questions are desires. So every judgment we have, there's a desire hidden there. We might not speak it, but we want the meeting to go a certain way, or we want a certain outcome, or you know, and desires are okay, except often they don't align with reality. The second one is concerns. We always have a concern about tomorrow. We don't want tomorrow to feel like or look like today, and that's often unspoken but yet a very valuable way to create a collaborative conversation.
Speaker 4:The third is authority issues. There's power issues. In every conversation we have, whether it's with our kids, our spouse, our boss, our colleagues or our community, we give different people's voices different levels of authority, yet we're often unaware of that, unconscious of that. And the last one is one of my favorites is standards. It's a catch-all word for all of our values and morals and what we think is right and wrong and good and bad, and so every judgment we have there's this standard underneath. That's driving that judgment, but yet we rarely share it. So one I use these four questions to say in every conversation in the book. It's like learn to share your thinking, you know. Learn to share your four questions, right, the four questions, and instead of going into a conversation with a fist, you go into a conversation with an open hand.
Speaker 3:That is. I really love those four questions because I love when you can take the theoretical and make it more applicable and tactical. And I've had the experience, the good fortune over the course of my career to work in the kind of DEI space and I've worked with some really amazing researchers in the space around subconscious, unconscious bias and I'm very aware of when you talk about conscious conversations, what I'm also hearing through those questions is this level of developing the self-awareness. For what is that ongoing dialogue that's happening in my mind and in the context of unconscious bias? We talk about the importance of again, not judging your thoughts but understanding that we have a tendency to organize information in our brain. That's how we can make quick decisions, especially, I used to do this in a health care context.
Speaker 3:So in a medical context you have to make really fast decisions. So in a medical context you have to make really fast decisions. But again, it's about developing that level of self-awareness and not letting the ego kind of get in front of your judgment. And so can you talk a little bit about how do you develop that sense of self-awareness so that you can, every time you come to these kind of critical conversations you have to have then?
Speaker 3:you can do it with, as you just said, an open hand and open heart, open mind, not kind of go to a quick judgment place.
Speaker 4:Yeah, one image I like is this image of a spiral If you ever put a quarter in the Museum of Science into this funnel and by the time it gets to the bottom it's spinning so fast you can't even know it's a quarter, right, you can't recognize it as a quarter. So I like to think about that as when something happens in real time, say, we get triggered, we have an emotional trigger, we have an emotional patterned reaction, right, we tend to spin down the funnel. And when we spin down the funnel it's all murky and foggy and cloudy and we can't see straight and we can't think straight. So the idea is, how do you catch yourself? How do you become aware enough to catch yourself? And so the process there is to A recognize your patterns, right.
Speaker 4:So I have a pattern of getting triggered when someone disagrees with me and I, you know, whatever, my mouth dries up, I get angry or whatever I do, I get disappointed or I push back. What's your pattern? Right? Investigate that pattern, right, because our ego is the thing that forces us down the funnel. Our ego is the thing that sort of takes us. You're right, you know, stand for your position, you know, fight for your, fight for being correct and the ego then is that sort of bog that we're in when we recognize our patterns and we don't judge them.
Speaker 4:Like you said, it would not a judgmental look, but a real, just a curiosity, like it's why I like to call them patterns, because I think it's less judgmental than habit. So I have a pattern. I used to have a pattern of getting angry with my kids when they were young and I recognized that and I realized what I was doing is I was turning into my father and then when I could recognize that, I could say, oh, I don't want that pattern, I can do something else. So then I see awareness as the light that brings us out of the dark funnel and out of the dark fog. So, catching ourselves, awareness, and then investigating what am I worried about? What are my standards? Is this really true? What are the facts? Those kinds of things that then lift us up so that we can in the future, with practice, reprogram our pattern this sounds very similar to.
Speaker 2:I think we're talking about the same thing, but I label it amygdala hijacking. Is this pretty similar where you just get, you just go off?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's the emotional piece that you know and I love that the amygdala idea and I think it was Proust who said our emotions are an upheaval of our thinking, a physical upheaval of our thinking which really is basically saying, yeah, you're going to have an emotion, you're going to get angry or sad or disappointed, but really there's something underneath there that you need to look at right. Then maybe it's that trigger, that just immediate trigger, that throws us into our pattern, because our body knows how to do that.
Speaker 3:And it's interesting because when you were talking about being able to kind of recognize the signs, those triggers, and you talked about the dry mouth and the getting angry and the thinking, it really is that multidimensional emotion, physical symptoms, and oftentimes those come without even understanding the thinking part to your point, like what's underlying, because I have been in situations where I feel okay and I think I'm not stressed, but I know that when my right eye twitches on a regular basis there's something wrong. Like I definitely have some level of underlying stressor. That's happening, my body is trying to signal to me you are stressed out, even though you're telling yourself you're not stressed out, right? So like you have to really kind of dig deep, do some meditation and really get to the heart of what's actually happening. It's like the physical symptoms can sometimes be a nice, you know, sign of something going on that you're not recognizing through thought.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, no, that's great. I don't. I think we're not trained to listen to our bodies. You know we're so trained to be left brain oriented and versus more intuitive and big picture, but we're also not trained to listen to our bodies. And a lot of my clients I've worked with. It's like what's the signal that you're getting stressed, like some people their shoulders creep up to their ears. Some people their mouth dries out, some people get sick to their stomach, but that physical it's like, like you said, it's like a circuit breaker, and if you can have the circuit breaker, then you have a space to investigate and maybe make a change right. So that's part of that process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I was teaching this work, it was really funny. I'm a human being. What triggers me is lack of fairness, and even if it's unfair to someone else, I'll get involved. I don't know where it came from.
Speaker 4:You're a great aunt.
Speaker 2:Well, my trigger is like I lunge, like I literally my spine goes up, like I'm like a cat, like I'm about to jump on someone.
Speaker 2:And what I do is I just stop communicating, I'll go to the bathroom, I'll phone out, don't hit the send button and I put a picture of my dog when she was a puppy on the home screen of my phone and I look at that and I'm like does Penny want a daddy like that? And that's the thing that like will relax me back. So I think for all of our listeners, if you know what your physical thing is, try to get a little circuit breaker in there. And the easiest way is don't talk.
Speaker 4:Yeah, remove yourself. Just leave the room, you know, do whatever you need to do to create that space that you can then be thinking out of the funnel a little more clearly. It's okay if you see fairness, but if you're untriggered you can have a much more productive conversation, much more conscious conversation than if you're triggered.
Speaker 2:And it saves a lot of apologies the next day, because usually that's what I have to do.
Speaker 4:A lot of damage to make up for yeah, yeah and um.
Speaker 2:You know our podcast is really short, but I wanted to get to. Uh, one of our favorite topics for all of us is could you share with our listeners about the four archetypes? What are those about?
Speaker 4:well, the four archetypes are the questions, the four types of conversations, is how the book's organized, because when I decided to sort of compile this book that you know touched on emotional intelligence and meditation and linguistics, you know that how do I organize that? And the four conversations types of conversations? I learned when I was studying language and they, the four conversations, are really different. We're in them all the time, but each one has a tool and a practice that can make us better and more conscious in our conversations and they're storytelling, collaboration, creativity and commitment conversations. And they unfold in an interesting way because storytelling is primary If we are stuck in our story or we have a negative story about ourselves or others, and that's how we enter a conversation good luck listening, good luck opening your mind or heart to hear them right. So we have to do our own work to investigate our own patterns, our own stories in order to enter a conversation more collaboratively.
Speaker 2:It's interesting to talk about storytelling and let me know if I'm on the right track. There are people that I know and I call them professional victims, and no matter what the conversation's about, it always gets into that.
Speaker 2:And what I learned about storytelling on my own end when I moved to Buenos Aires from Boston just a few months ago. People don't ask what you do for a living, People don't care and they really don't like it when you show off, and it was really weird. It's like what do I talk about? The weather? They have plenty to talk about, but it's really interesting to think that we all do have a story. It's not necessarily bad, but we all have a story. Is that okay? Is that something that we should work on changing? What do you think about us all having a story?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So the way I think about that is our stories. We need stories, and some of our stories are fabulous. I had a grandmother that told me I could walk on water, and my grandfather told me that I was not a big enough man, so luckily, the positive one won out. But so stories are not a bad thing, except there's some stories that don't serve us well, and what happens is, I think, our ego and our identity gets attached to our story, and so this whole idea of becoming knowing what our patterns are, knowing what our stories are, is the detachment part. So I can be out here going, I can be out here witnessing, I can be out here witnessing. Oh, I have an interesting story about my anger that came from my pop that I don't have to adopt anymore, that I can change, and it's that detachment that allows us to take a negative story that's not serving us well and transform it.
Speaker 3:That is. I mean, that is so interesting. And it brings me to another, I think, key concept in your book, because if I were to think about my own story, it definitely is. I don't want to disappoint anyone, right?
Speaker 3:So I don't disappoint anyone by saying yes, all the time, yes, I can do it, I can do it and it doesn't matter how much is on my plate, but I just don't want to disappoint that person who's asking something of me and so eventually I burn out because I've taken too much on. And you talk about the power of saying no in your book, and can you talk about why that's such an important exercise and teach me how to do it?
Speaker 4:So the last conversation is the commitment conversation, which is really the promises we make. It's like everything that happens in life starts with the request or an offer I request to do something. Someone's requesting you to do something or you're offering to do something, and then we have choices, and there's three choices yes, which many people are addicted to. Yes because we don't want to hurt people's feelings. We don't want to upset the relationship. We don't want to disappoint, we want to please, right. Okay, there's times where that's fine, but a quick yes makes a sloppy promise, because you don't really know all the elements of what you're being requested to do. And for every request in the world there are five or six components that you might say yes to five of them, but the sixth one, you might go, can't do it Monday, I can give it to you Tuesday. No is important, because a request without a possible no isn't a request.
Speaker 3:All right, can you say that one more time? A?
Speaker 4:request without a possible no isn't a request. It's a demand.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay.
Speaker 4:Now you might create the demand because you don't know how to say no, or the other person might deliver it and it might be a boss that's authoritarian and just goes. You're going to do this right, so, anyway, I love that line. A request without a no is not a request. But there's a third option and it's called the counteroffer. So if you want to break your pattern around, yes, adopt counteroffer, which basically means if someone makes a request, just ask two or three questions before you say anything, because one option is, let's say, take the four archetypal questions. You might say well, what problem are we trying to solve? What's our desire or goal here? What's your concern? Are you just concerned about the board? What does the standard of success look like? What would good look like? Right, a couple of questions.
Speaker 4:You know and be aware of the power issues, because then they might say they might say oh, no, I want a PowerPoint, but I want mostly pictures, no words, got it, I want it by Monday. Okay, who's it for? Blah, blah, blah, and then you might go okay, I got it, I can't do it Monday, like I said earlier, but I can give it to you Tuesday morning. That's a counteroffer, and as soon as you make a counteroffer, you're in the commitment conversation dance, because then they get to say yes, no or counteroffer, and that five or 10 minutes of clarification creates a much better promise that you most likely will be able to fulfill.
Speaker 3:I mean to be honest with you that will change my life. I mean just allowing just enough of a pause in the speech and I love your questions because, especially in a power dynamic, where you're dealing with your boss or someone who's in a more powerful position and you don't want to disappoint them to just ask some clarifying questions, which is perfectly natural to have to do, and and not. It doesn't come across as I'm resisting, or, but it really does allow the space and opens up the opportunity to really assess whether or not you can create a more, a better promise.
Speaker 4:I guess is as usual, yeah, and adopting the counteroffer. If your intent is correct, your intent is to want to make a promise you can keep and build trust, because that's where trust comes from. So if your intent is that you're not asking questions to be a smart aleck, you're asking questions. Let me understand, so I can really really help you.
Speaker 2:Right what I've learned as a recovering people pleaser that will say yes, which I hadn't. Later, I've adopted what Harvard does to me with most of my course proposals, which is say no, but they don't actually use the word no. They'll come back with with what you're talking about Last few questions for the students, but it's for the questions that you're talking about. Then they come back with a conditional and they say if you can have a PhD and this and that then we can move you to the next level, and I've used that. If someone says, do you want to go out to dinner at seven, I might say, if we can go to sushi at my favorite place, which is across the street from my apartment, then I'm in and I've started to do that and I'm eating a lot of sushi. It's good, yeah, right across the street.
Speaker 4:No, the counteroffer is a beautiful thing and it's really. We're never taught that. Basically, you know, we tend to be addicted to yes and we're afraid of no, and the counteroffer is just the counterbalance. It afraid of no and the counteroffer is just the counterbalance. It's like wait a minute, we're making promises that can change your life tomorrow, or at least tonight at dinner, right?
Speaker 3:So let's make sure we do that well. But can I ask a quick follow-up, just simply because I feel like this is maybe a little bit generational? We've done a few podcasts with Gen Z, for instance, a panel of Gen Z. Michael and I are always fascinated. Of course I have two boys who are 21 and 18. So I have raised Gen Z. But they are such a dynamic generation who has gone through so much. But they're really good at boundaries and they're really good at understanding. You know kind of what they want to do and what they really don't want to do and to kind of push back. Do you find in your research has it been more of the Gen Xers and the boomers who are more of the people pleasers and we're seeing a little bit of a shift, or not really, it's just more anecdotal at this point.
Speaker 4:You know I don't have any real good studies to back this up, but what I can say is what's interesting to me is there are more Gen Zers. What's the generation before Wise?
Speaker 3:Yeah, plenty else.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that are more interested in my book than older people. Yeah, I believe that Somehow there's more open book like, yeah, this is important, communication is important, even though, then, that we have to deal with all of the technology and social media and stuff. But they do have boundaries and they have some standards that they want to live by and they're willing to talk about that. And I think older folks that a lot of times those things we just held inside and suffered.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because we didn't have the same level of influence, where people were encouraging us to talk about our feelings and so forth, whereas this generation, who has gone through a global pandemic and really deals with mental health and talks about these things, I think what we see in the research is that they are much more purpose driven in the way that they're thinking about living their lives. So I love that you're finding that young people are gravitating towards your book. That's wonderful.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, it's really great.
Speaker 2:I love it too. That is interesting and I wanted to ask advice for our listeners from you. Two weeks ago I was in Brazil. I was giving a conference to some business people and part of it was listening was one of the modules, and I met this woman who someone told me she owns two resorts in Brazil. She has 4,000 employees super smart, just really good at questions and she invited me out to dinner at the end of the conference with a few other people and when I showed up there were already three people there and I don't think anyone knew who she was and she said nothing about herself and she was fascinated with everyone really asking very in-depth questions.
Speaker 2:You know senior people, junior people and you could tell that people loved it. But she really liked it. She was really much more interested in other people and their stories than than hers and I'm curious. It was like this woman had no idea how likable she was being, even though we knew nothing about her really. And how do people get the mindset of being a better listener? She was amazing at it. But how do we want to be a better listener as opposed to? Well, I should do it like do my exercise. What can we do to incentivize people to say I want to be a better listener, because Anything that could inspire yeah, I think we're trained to be advocates and we're trained to be bad advocates.
Speaker 4:actually, we're trained to hold our position with a fist and hammer it into the meeting or hammer it into the conversation. And I think that idea of using the questions to open our hand right, Personally, that's a humbling, vulnerable place. You can demonstrate that vulnerability. But once you do that, you have you find a curiosity to say that there's a lot more in this person that I'm engaging with, having sushi with you. Know, I, I, there's plenty to know.
Speaker 4:And so questions, I say you fall in love with questions, because not not questions that are inquisitory, but questions that you really want to understand how they think or what they're doing in their life and what matters to them, and so I think this idea of learning how to ask questions in a really open hearted way is really crucial, and I'll go back and say to do that, well, you got to do your own damn work. What keeps you from doing that? What are you holding on to that keeps you from opening your hand and being vulnerable and humble? That allows you then to be interested in the other person in a really honest way.
Speaker 3:I love that because I know in my doing my own work, one of the reasons I think I wasn't a good listener is because I thought if I can add to the conversation, that's how I bring value, if I can be really smart and say something intelligence, that's how I can add value, rather than leading with curiosity, relaxing into the conversation, not trying to constantly be thinking about what I'll say next, but really listening and let that happen more organically. That's when the real stuff happens right and that's what's valuable, not necessarily having to say something super smart.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, that's what leads us into collaborative, really really productive, collaborative conversations when both people are open and there's mutual learning going on. Because I'm open to my mind being changed by something you say. I say, oh wow, I never thought of it that way. And then all of a sudden we're in a really very different conversation.
Speaker 2:About that. I'm curious if we've read the book and we say I really want to have collaborative conversations and I love the idea of doing that because you get a much bigger deal or you get much more out of it, when both people are doing that, if I'm in a collaborative mindset and the other person is not, what's yeah, the fist is out. What do I? How do I? How do I manage that? I want to be collaborative, but they're they're not.
Speaker 4:Yeah all right, yeah, so there's a.
Speaker 4:So there's a couple of layers here One sometimes, if you open your hand and you're showing your cards and being vulnerable, it has a tendency to make people feel safe. And people that are ready psychologically, spiritually, emotionally they'll meet you. Okay, now that you said that I can say this, they'll meet you and go. Okay, now that you said that I can say this. Then there are other people, next layer, that are stubborn and they haven't tasted that beauty of humility and vulnerability, right, because they think it's unsafe. They're fearful because they're spinning down the spiral.
Speaker 4:So that's where you can ask the four questions of them, because your questions are you try to pry their hand open. So what are you really concerned about? And if they don't really answer that well, that's not a concern. But what matters to you? Why are you worried about this? What are your? You have you seem to really have a strong judgment about this. How are you? What are the standards by which you're judging? Is it a moral standard? Is the value standard? Is the belief you have? Ask those questions so slowly. Maybe you can open their hand and it works. It can work when people are ready and if we can ask skillful questions. That's why I love these four shortcuts, because they're like a little recipe right Now. Then you're going to meet people that just won't budge and it's okay to walk away from those conversations. Let them be stuck. Because you tried your best, you opened your hand. You're trying to pry their damn hand open. They don't budge. See you later, buddy, I'm not going to waste my energy.
Speaker 2:When I teach negotiation and I basically, if I'm the one trying to be cooperative, I could be considered the soft negotiator, and if the other side is just your typical, you know, hard negotiator, a soft person is going to lose and in hindsight you would have been better walking away from a deal than saying yes to a bad deal. Bad deal.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah. They won't accept the bad enough, so just leave you know.
Speaker 3:Yes, I mean you have to at some point walk away. This has been a wonderful conversation. We've gone way over time. Both Michael and myself are so into this topic. We'll have to have you back.
Speaker 4:Let's do it again. Yeah, let's do it again, why not?
Speaker 3:And just even think about a few cases and so forth.
Speaker 2:We hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to hear future episodes, be sure to subscribe to the Happy at Work podcast and leave us a review with your thoughts.
Speaker 1:Are you interested in speaking on a future episode or want to collaborate with us? Let us know. You can send us an email at admin at happyatworkpodcastcom. And, lastly, follow us on LinkedIn or Twitter for even more happiness. See you soon.
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